TOPIC: Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #863

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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Thanks, Rob. I appreciate that nod of confidence. I have to get permission from my employer before I can run. I don't think it will be a problem but I will need to work through that process before doing anything.

Ryan

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #864

  • Gordon Stahl
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Rob,
Correct me if I am wrong.
SAP allows a "contest" to be
Winch launched - regardless of design, power, line type
Hand launched - Left or right hand :-)
Bungee launched, high start, regardless of length or strength, even just monofilament line stretch launched
Man towed, regardless of the size of the man or count of the men

To me it's pretty clear, no one cared or cares how the launch actually happens, prop, jet, what ever.
It doesn't specifically exclude any type of launch system.

In the past while Elaunch was possible, it was cumbersome and heavy, and no powered electric guy would have considered trying to work the tasks and no sailplane guy would have either. The change has been in the weight, cost and power of the motor systems that fit cheaply into an existing sailplane and the ALES switches which also didn't exist.
Those factors void any concerns about using a nose motor to launch in contests.
So mixing launch systems in contests as far as the LSF and ELSF goes comes down to this: If a pilot is working on ELSF, he takes a Elaunch ship to a TD contest. If he is working on LSF he takes a winch launch ship to a TD contest.
If there are 20 pilots in the contest both pilots gain points for 20 pilots. How many pilots were using which launch system?

Its not relevant because they all have to fly the same tasks....and the forms ask for pilot count and your scores.

The goal of the board should be to work at including as many pilots as possible in the programs. Not exclusion.
The one thing that is for sure, you can't guess at this topic, you have to fly a Mixed Launch contest before you can understand that the launch has no effect on the LSF Tasks. Neither does the launch system have an effect on the outcome of the contests, because its the pilots who earn the scores. (plenty of pilots launched higher than you did, when you won your LSF5 contests, plenty launch higher than you did when you got your LSF2,3 & 4 contest points).

ELSF is very relevant and using Elaunch for LSF tasks is not appropriate, because launching skills do factor into a pilots ability to complete thermal tasks. Learning to control the model while on tow, maximizing the launch, learning model set ups, avoiding stalls while on line...all learned skills. And that's what the program was designed for, learning skills.
Its why the founders mention launching specifically.

The idea that completing the program is some sacred honor is goofy. If you have the money, time and interest anyone can do it...or could do it. But today and in the future there will be less and less opportunity for pilots who want to complete the program to find contest with enough pilots to meet the counts. Mixed launch offers every current LSF member that opportunity.
Gordy

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #865

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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gordysoar wrote: To me it's pretty clear, no one cared or cares how the launch actually happens, prop, jet, what ever.
It doesn't specifically exclude any type of launch system.


My opinion/read of the bylaws is that the founders intended the LSF program to be for non motorized gliders of any sort. I base this opinion on 3 things:

1) They specify the eligible launch method as tow line or hand launch in the SAP (tow line is listed in the thermal tasks hand launch or tow line in the slope tasks). In fact they specifically wrote "Towing by means of aircraft or other airborne devices is expressly forbidden."
2) In section 1 of the SAP they write "The LSF Soaring Accomplishments Program consists of sequential performance tests or "Levels", as they shall be referred to hereafter, for flying radio controlled (R/C) model sailplanes which meet current FAI specifications." From the RC Soaring regulations (5.3.1.1) "Model aircraft which is not provided with a propulsion device and in which lift is generated by aerodynamic forces acting on surfaces remaining fixed in flight, except control surfaces."
3) A very popular and viable motorized launch method existed back when the SAP was founded. Back then guys would frequently attach glo motors or build models specifically to have a glo motor in the nose. That launch method is actually fairly comparable to TD in that when the motor ran out of fuel there was no restarting it. That they specified "Towing by means of aircraft or other airborne devices is expressly forbidden."

To me means that the SAP is a non motorized entity.

Ryan

Powered Flight Disqualifies 2 years 6 months ago #866

  • Tim McCann
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Ryan is correct.
(SAP Section 1 and 7) Powered flight is expressly forbidden in LSF...PERIOD! Any tasks including competitions that use self-propulsion can not be considered as an SAP achievement. Until an affirmative “super majority” vote is achieved, y'all are just blowing hot air...two hour air if we could get you all in one spot.

Secretary Rob is correct, eSAP does not exist echoing Treasurer Gil who correctly voted NO on the 2014 “amendments” on bylaw issues. The 2014 amendments to the bylaws and Article 16 which added the eSAP lacking a “super majority” was an “Ultra Vires Act” and therefore not a legitimate part of LSF so eSAP discussions are moot, akin to a meeting of the Flat Earth Society.

Pres. Jim, Gordy, other motorglider folks, focus your energy on creating a motorglider achievement program independent of the LSF.

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #867

  • Gordon Stahl
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Tim,
Simply by using the phrase "motor glider" doesn't make it true.

Ryan and you are right and wrong. The Launch in a contest is not part of the task.

"Model aircraft which is not provided with a propulsion device", Read that however you want and you'd be right, but boys no one asking that E-launch sailplanes be used for SAP Tasks.

Mixed Launch.

Hold your breaths, stamp your feet, but like it or not, E-launch and the Esap are here to stay. IF you address the use of Elaunch in Mixed Launch contests, a 20 man contest, 1 pilot has Elaunch, 19 have winch launch. The E-launch guy gets 20man points for his Esap program and the other 19 get 20 pilot points for their SAP. And visa versa.

The launch system is not part of the Contest point system. You can throw, winch it, bungee it, tow it for SAP, and only E-launch it for Esap.

Stamp your feet, hold your breath, but Elaunch and Mixed Launch TD is not going to go away. The Program will adapt because it is for the pilots to come, not for the ones that are done.

Tell me Elaunch is a fad and make your case, otherwise become part of the solution. Work on other ways to make the program more inclusive and more accessible. I would like every single sailplane pilot to make LSF5 or Elsf5. As the program is at the moment, that can't happen.

Are you for the future of the hobby or are you willing to let the program die?

Mixed Launch will allow all of your LSF4's to have access to 20 man contests, lots of 20 man contests.

Argue that. But before you do, show me where on the front of the form, where it asks with kind of launch was used.

Tim, I am actively flying contests, not just my club contest, contest out of state, Ales, RES, Unlimited. I have actively witnessing tasks for clubmates. I am actively promoting tasks to guys in the club.

You?

I am actually doing things to protect and grow the program. I organized and witnessed Ryan 8.
So those of you who think they know more about growing and protecting the program, get out your resume's, then lets talk.
Gordy

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #868

  • Wayne Norrie
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A lot of you are thinking 20 man contests but allowing mixed launches to count for LSF points also helps small clubs begin LSF programs. Where I fly 8 pilots is a good turn out. I always have a mix of sailplanes and getting even 5 pilots flying the same launch mode is a challenge. It is hard to get people interested in LSF when you cannot meet even the minimum pilot count for a L2 contest. Mixed launch would allow more people to begin their LSF journey. I understand that travel to bigger contests is needed to complete the SAP but one should not need to travel 150 miles to find a L2 eligible contest.

We have been flying mixed launch events since 2010 here in SE Minnesota and it works just fine. Granted, it was done out of necessity because I was not about to send some Radian pilots packing just so I could hold an LSF eligible contest. Up here if you show up with a sailplane you can join in the fun. We always figure out a way to make it work. Hopefully the LSF can figure out a way to make it work also.

Wayne

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #869

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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gordysoar wrote: The Program will adapt because it is for the pilots to come, not for the ones that are done.


I'm ignoring the who has more experience or what is good for the hobby or not for a moment. I don't see how the SAP can "evolve" given the bylaws which specifically say it isn't to change without a supermajority vote of the living level 4 and level 5s.

My read of section 11 of the SAP is that for the competition requirements contestants need to fly RC sailplanes as defined by section 1 and section 7. My read is that not every person flying at the field that day needs to be flying RC Sailplanes but the participants in the contest from a SAP perspective need to be flying sailplanes that meet the requirements of section 1 and 7. By your logic if the participants don't need to be flying RC Sailplanes then would it be OK to have a contest and count participants flying free flight gliders? My read is no on that also based on section 1 which covers the entire SAP.

waynen wrote: Hopefully the LSF can figure out a way to make it work also.


Wayne,

What are you proposing we as an association do to figure it out?

Ry an

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #870

  • Wayne Norrie
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Ryan, I am not proposing anything right now as I think it is a little premature. Before we start the grueling discussion/fight about how the bylaws would need to be changed to allow this, we first need to discuss the merits of whether or not this is a good thing. From my experiences working at a very small club level it would be a great improvement but different people will bring different perspectives to this discussion. For example, if I lived in an area of the country which had a large, well established club with 30 active members I may think there is no need to change this. These clubs have the numbers to hold separate contests for each format. But when your entire soaring group consists of 12 people, consisting of both e-launch and string launch pilots it get a little harder. Like I said before when I get 7 - 8 people showing up for an event I consider it a success. Very rarely does that mix of pilots ever allow for a "LSF eligable" 5 person contest. Allowing mixed launch would go a long way to getting people started on the LSF journey.

Wayne

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #871

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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waynen wrote: Ryan, I am not proposing anything right now as I think it is a little premature.


Kinda sounds to me like you are proposing something:

waynen wrote: Allowing mixed launch would go a long way to getting people started on the LSF journey.


:)

waynen wrote: But when your entire soaring group consists of 12 people, consisting of both e-launch and string launch pilots it get a little harder.


I get that. I met 2 RC glider (in addition to lots of other RC things) pilots last month and that just doubled the people that on a week in week out basis I have to fly RC gliders with. :) When I was working on L3 and L4 ~10 years ago I struggled with even finding a 2nd person to witness my thermal and distance tasks! Until I met these other two guys a few weeks ago I was wondering how I would find a 2nd person to witness my friends and my eSAP L3 stuff when we finish L2. I totally get that and that was a big reason why when the eSAP was being discussed I was very vocal about trying to find ways to make the eSAP be more inclusive. I proposed things like alternatives to the way contests had been done for the SAP, allowing a person to substitute the the 8 hour slope task, allowing a closed course version of the XC, etc. Nobody really seemed very interested in making the proposed eSAP program more inclusive.


Ryan

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #872

  • Wayne Norrie
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ryanw wrote: Kinda sounds to me like you are proposing something:


Nope I'm really not. I will participate in the discussion and share my experiences and view points but I won't go so far as to propose anything when it comes to making changes to anything concerning LSF. I learned that lesson last time. My thoughts and experiences are too easily dismissed due to my LSF "rank" and my relative new status to soaring. Any proposed change to the program needs to come from someone like Larry J, Merril B, Jim M, or yourself. Someone who has been involved with LSF for a long time.

I will continue to offer my perspectives as a person pursuing the LSF journey outside of a big established club and hopefully my suggestions will be reflected in whatever proposal comes forward. Until then I will continue to promote soaring, in all its flavors, and LSF to the best of my abilities in my little corner of the world here in fly over country.

Wayne
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