TOPIC: Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #873

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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waynen wrote: Nope I'm really not.


If I add a smiley that means I'm (mostly) kidding. :)

waynen wrote: My thoughts and experiences are too easily dismissed due to my LSF "rank" and my relative new status to soaring.


I have always thought that this resume comparison thing is childish at best. If you are a member of the LSF you have a right to contribute to the conversation (we may disagree with your opinions/ideas as people frequently do). Obviously folks should share their experiences and folks who haven't yet completed the program or haven't yet worked some of the tasks should pay particular notice to what those that have are willing to share.

When folks say that you or any other LSF member isn't qualified to have an opinion I always make it a point to jump in and say "shenanigans" to them.

Ryan

A potential path forward 2 years 6 months ago #919

  • James Deck
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The prime reason for establishing the ESAP was to integrate ALES type pilots into the LSF. A new event, Mixed Launch, where ALES type sailplanes fly from a winch flight line along with winch-launched sailplanes is becoming more popular. Now the problem becomes fitting this event into either of the two LSF accomplishment programs. First, mixed-launch events are thermal events. Second, each pilot is making a thermal flight as described in Section 7 of the accomplishment program participated in. Note that in Section 11 - COMPETITION C-Events (1) of either program, launch methods are not prescribed. Therefore, a mixed-launch contest could be viewed as a thermal event offering the pilot a choice of launch technique. Once airborne, all of the pilots are competing against one another irregardless of their launch technique. CD's of mixed-launched events are continuing to do their best to make the event a "level playing field" for both types of sailplanes.
At present , attendance at R/C soaring competitions is diminishing thus increasing the difficulty of meeting the competition requirements of either accomplishment program. Treating mixed-launch events as a thermal event applicable to either accomplishment program would aid all LSF members in the pursuit of their goals and certainly is in the spirit of either LSF accomplishment program.
For purposes of legality and clarity, Section 11 C (1) could be modified as follows "Extended thermal duration" changed to Extended thermal duration as described in Section 7 of either the LSF SAP or LSF ESAP. This modification would require a vote of current Level IV & Level V LSF members and could be accomplished electronically. Please let the LSF Board know if a such a vote should be taken.

ABSURD! 2 years 6 months ago #920

  • Tim McCann
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Section 1 of the SAP: “Current FAI specification for R/C sailplanes” is “UNPOWERED” and applies to all SAP tasks including competition.

Launch methods for Thermal duration, distance and slope is first defined in Section 7 and expressly forbids powered launch and applies to Section 11 “Thermal Duration” “Slope” and “Distance”. NOT using the Section 7 definition and allowing undefined powered flight in competitions means any type of r/c aircraft including helicopter and quadcoptor competitions can be counted. Allowing powered launch in an SAP competition is an ABSURD interpretation and just plain cheating.

A super majority to change the SAP and Article 16 is affirmative votes from 2/3rds of current LIVING level 4s and 5s. If they have a pulse they are included in the count and non votes are the same as no votes. Approximately 500 yes votes from 4s and 5s must be cast to change the SAP and Article 16.

If the SAP is modified to include powered aircraft subsequent achievers will carry an “asterisk of diminished accomplishment”. Powered flight will never LEGITIMATELY be added to the LSF. Again, motorglider folks, start your own organization.

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #921

  • Rob Glover
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Exactly where in the current AMA or FAI rule books are the mixed classes of powered craft and sailplanes allowed in a soaring event? I don't yet see that. Under current rules we are talking about 2 separate classes of airplane which do not mix under the existing published rules. Higher level competitors won't show up in large numbers for an event without widely accepted, published, and consistent rules. Does anybody really know yet what those rules are?

If this is to ever be successful enough to attract the numbers of fliers necessary to make it a real program it needs to have actual rules, be vetted by the "authorities" and accepted by the marketplace. It also needs to be published in the currently accepted rule books. None of this has happened yet. Provisional events need to be run through channels to make them real. None of this has ever been done by LSF in the past, the CD's and pilots have largely fulfilled this duty.

E soaring is immature at this point. If I were to rate the current "State of ESAP" I'd call it a Level II program working towards Level III. In my experience this is about where practice starts to integrate with knowledge. Under these conditions learning and accomplishment start to take place.

When the LSF was first conceived (1969?) the general opinion was that it was impossible to attain level V. The first V was not achieved until 1975, 6 years later. There was a lot of groundwork done during that period, to include technical achievements, generation of new clubs, recruitment of pilots, and testing of events. Regional infrastructures of local clubs were ultimately established to generate contest circuits. The technology has been handed to ESAP pilots. You expect us to hand you everything else as well? Sorry, it does not all exist yet. Go to work.

E pilots seem to be in a big hurry to get a program without actually figuring out what works and establishing the infrastructure necessary. If you want something bad that's how you'll get it.

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #922

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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If we are going to conduct a vote of the living Level 4s and Level 5s (which I think we should, I have said for at least five years I would be willing to help with the process) I think we should just go ahead and add to what Jim proposed (voting on whether to allow mixed launch contests in both programs) to just go ahead and vote on what I think several very vocal people pushing this discussion want anyway which is to just combine the programs. That is what a lot of vocal LSF (and a few non LSF) members have expressed here and other places that they want (that altitude limiter electric gliders should be allowed in the LSF SAP). We should just go ahead and vote on that now to finally put the issue to bed on whether or not the LSF level 4s and 5s want this or not.

I'm with Rob though that I think it is a bit early for us to be breaking out the popsicles. According to Gordy the very first mixed launch regional contest is a little under 2 weeks away. Maybe we should wait a bit to see how well this actually works out.

Ryan

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #1035

  • Wayne Norrie
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Ryan, I know you have been offering to assist in contacting all the L4 and L5 members but that action might be a little premature at this point for this issue. Only a tiny handful of people have commented here and some of those have only commented on the issues within the bylaws and not on the original question. It might be a good idea for a small group of L4 and L5 members who believe in the merits of this idea to "sponsor" the idea. They could represent the idea and champion its merits and work to persuade the LSF membership into accepting the idea. This would foster discussion, hopefully polite, here and in other forums and at large events all across the country. After this discussion period was over these sponsors would have a good idea what the feelings were of the membership regarding this idea. Then at that point they could offer a proposal, or not, depending on their findings. Asking club coordinators to initiate discussions within their clubs would also be a good way to foster discussions regarding the merits of the idea.

Wayne

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 5 months ago #1055

  • James Deck
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After thinking this thing through and listening to the wise counsel of LSF members here and in private emails, I have come to the conclusion that it is just a tad too early to make the changes I have suggested. At the end of this season, I'd like to see the topic of mixed launched contests examined again in this forum starting with comments from CD's and competitors who have flown the event. Thanks to all who have contributed.
Jim Deck LSF President
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