TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #209

  • Preston Heller
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tMcCann wrote:

SSP has no competition component.
LES has never been a success.
We're not here to debate about those programs.
Stop playing games. It's a waste of everyone's time. We all know you are dead set
against an ESAP as part of LSF, Mr. McCann.

Preston

I am against as much as you are for.

Remember, motorgliders are the interlopers asking to be included, and not very politely. Will this be the face of the face of the new LSF? I doubt your brazen rudeness will garner many votes from the traditional membership.


I see. E-sailplanes are interlopers. Well, e-sailplanes don't ask for anything - they can't, they are sailplanes. It is the pilots that do - and many many of those pilots are already LSF members in good standing, including myself. Such close mindedness would rather have the LSF go belly up, than adapt to a changing world. My "rudeness" was in response to your myopic game playing, so I could as easily say it was you, in fact, who was rude.

Let me make this perfectly clear. I don't care what kind of sailplane you fly.

This thread is filled with the same old arguments. Fly what you what you want. Fly what you like. Do I really care if someone thinks my sailplane is not a "pure" sailplane? No, not really. This debate will go on and on and on, then like a spinning top that loses it energy, it will finally topple over and stop. At this point I see no real value in the endless debating, but I do wonder how many of those who are opposed to winch in nose launching have actually gone out spent some time flying one of these sailplanes.

I also find the lack of compassion for older, and perhaps, less fit pilots, somewhat disconcerting. Does this hobby not have room for everyone? Can not everyone's preferences be accommodated without acrimony? If you want to fly winch launch, hand launch, slope, scale, or pterodactyls, go for it, it's fine with me. Have fun and enjoy the camaraderie, because if you're not, why are you doing this? It's a hobby, not a religion.

Peace, brother. And good thermals to ya.

Preston
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #210

  • Tim McCann
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Curtis Suter wrote:

Remember, motorgliders are the interlopers asking to be included, and not very politely.


Definition: The FAI Gliding Commission Sporting Code definition is: A fixed-wing aerodyne equipped with a means of propulsion (MoP), capable of sustained soaring flight without thrust from the means of propulsion

If the motor is unable to be restarted after it has been shut down then what's the difference? From a full scale or model pilot perspective I just can't see how there is a difference.
I'd really appreciate a full understanding from you on this tMcCann as I respect your journey and experience but for some reason I can't see through the trees what point you're trying to make? Just trying to learn.

Curtis
Montana

Sailplanes are not self-propelled. That was the philosophy of the founders who hardwired it into the bylaws which gave the program prestige and success for over 40 years. Motorglider folks, start your own program!

This forum has degraded into an extension of R/C Groups and probably reflects the future of LSF which has no appeal to me. I'll be voting NO to ANY change to the program. Good luck to us all
Over and Out!
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #211

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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eAnderson wrote: Just do some searches on Youtube and you will find a LOT of egliders being flown on the slope.


I guess I stand corrected. I had no idea it was so prevalent.

Ryan
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Generate light - not heat 4 years 1 month ago #212

  • James Deck
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A reminder The purpose of this topic was to comment on or ask questions about the ESAP proposal. Please remember to stay on that topic and that every participant here is a fellow LSF member. This thread is your opportunity to participate in the creation and adoption of a parallel SAP for electrically powered sailplanes please use it wisely and with the same courtesy you'd show to a fellow pilot visiting your flying site. Now, back to the topic.
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Generate light - not heat 4 years 1 month ago #213

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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jdadmin wrote: This thread is your opportunity to participate in the creation and adoption of a parallel SAP for electrically powered sailplanes please use it wisely and with the same courtesy you'd show to a fellow pilot visiting your flying site.


Can you expound upon that a bit? Is the program's details still up for debate?

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #214

  • Ed Anderson
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ryanw wrote:

eAnderson wrote: Just do some searches on Youtube and you will find a LOT of egliders being flown on the slope.


I guess I stand corrected. I had no idea it was so prevalent.

Ryan


I started on electric planes and then went to pure gliders. I have now added electric gliders to my fleet.

Ryan, I know you know this, today the difference is so small as to be irrelevant. Once you get involved with egliders you use they are exactly the same as any other gliders. They are soaring machines.

I think if you told a full scale sailplane pilot that his sailplane was not a real sailplane because it self launches he would have a problem with that. Same for the eglider pilots. They are totally perplexed with this whole pure versus electric glider argument which is focused on the first 15 to 30 seconds of the flight and ignores the rest of the flight.

Elitist? Perhaps.

As someone who flies both, I am perplexed by it too.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #215

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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eAnderson wrote: Ryan, I know you know this, today the difference is so small as to be irrelevant. Once you get involved with egliders you use they are exactly the same as any other gliders.


I'm pretty sure I have been flying electric sailplanes at least as long as you have. :) I guess I just didn't know that people were actively enjoying slope soaring with them and hence I thought it might not make sense to include slope soaring tasks in a specifically e SAP. Like I said, if I am wrong about that I'm happy to be corrected.

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #216

  • Curtis Suter
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Thanks, answers my question perfectly.
Curtis

tMcCann wrote:

Curtis Suter wrote:

Remember, motorgliders are the interlopers asking to be included, and not very politely.


Definition: The FAI Gliding Commission Sporting Code definition is: A fixed-wing aerodyne equipped with a means of propulsion (MoP), capable of sustained soaring flight without thrust from the means of propulsion

If the motor is unable to be restarted after it has been shut down then what's the difference? From a full scale or model pilot perspective I just can't see how there is a difference.
I'd really appreciate a full understanding from you on this tMcCann as I respect your journey and experience but for some reason I can't see through the trees what point you're trying to make? Just trying to learn.

Curtis
Montana

Sailplanes are not self-propelled. That was the philosophy of the founders who hardwired it into the bylaws which gave the program prestige and success for over 40 years. Motorglider folks, start your own program!

This forum has degraded into an extension of R/C Groups and probably reflects the future of LSF which has no appeal to me. I'll be voting NO to ANY change to the program. Good luck to us all
Over and Out!

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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #217

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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I propose instead of this wording:

All thermal duration tasks will be attempted with an electric sailplane equipped with an altitude limiting device set to a maximum launch height of 200 meters (656.17 feet) and a maximum motor run time of 30 seconds. The flight commences when the sailplane leaves the pilot or a helper’s hand or when the sailplane leaves the ground if a rise-off-ground takeoff is used. A motor restart will void the flight even if the task target is achieved.


We use something like:

All thermal duration tasks will be attempted with an electric sailplane either equipped with an altitude limiting device set to a maximum launch height of 200 meters (656.17 feet) or via a timed motor run of 15 seconds. if an altitude limiting device is used then the maximum motor run time of 30 is seconds either verified by the witness or via the the altitude limiting device cutting off the motor run. The flight commences when the sailplane leaves the pilot or a helper’s hand or when the sailplane leaves the ground if a rise-off-ground takeoff is used. A motor restart will void the flight even if the task target is achieved.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #218

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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When would the flight time start? The wording on the news page reads to me like the flight time starts as soon as the model leaves the ground.

Ryan
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