TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #374

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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eAnderson wrote: How could LSF possibly be the SIG for electric soarers when LSF won't admit electric soarers to LSF?


What I find more amazing is how you could have 20,000 rc groups posts and not know that.... Especially since it has been mentioned probably 20 times in various threads you have been in.

The AMA's SIG listing is here:

www.modelaircraft.org/membership/sig.aspx

You'll note that there isn't an electric SIG listed. About 6 or 7 years ago there was one. It was the NEAC National Electric Aircraft Counsel. It existed from probably the mid 90s till about 2009 or so. The NEAC organized the electric nationals that at one point had things like LMR and electric pylon. The NEAC kind of dwindled and when it fell apart the AMA and the last remnants of the NEAC asked the LSF to take over the electric SIG duties which at that point really only consisted of running the electric Nats. Which today is just ALES. So the LSF is the electric SIG not that we really sought that out it just kind of fell into being because the folks that organize the soaring Nats were willing to take on the electric Nats.

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #375

  • Hutton Oddy
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Its enlightening to see democracy at work.

I thought soaring was soaring. It doesn't matter how you get up there.

A view from across the Pacific ocean (there are non-USA members) is that the LSF is a good club to be in because it brings like minded people together to expand their capabilities and enjoy each others company.

Please don't screw that up as you cling to the past in pursuit of a new future.

I strongly support including electric launch as a valid method to participate in the LSF.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #376

  • Ed Anderson
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ryanw wrote:

eAnderson wrote: How could LSF possibly be the SIG for electric soarers when LSF won't admit electric soarers to LSF?


What I find more amazing is how you could have 20,000 rc groups posts and not know that.... Especially since it has been mentioned probably 20 times in various threads you have been in.

The AMA's SIG listing is here:

www.modelaircraft.org/membership/sig.aspx

You'll note that there isn't an electric SIG listed. About 6 or 7 years ago there was one. It was the NEAC National Electric Aircraft Counsel. It existed from probably the mid 90s till about 2009 or so. The NEAC organized the electric nationals that at one point had things like LMR and electric pylon. The NEAC kind of dwindled and when it fell apart the AMA and the last remnants of the NEAC asked the LSF to take over the electric SIG duties which at that point really only consisted of running the electric Nats. Which today is just ALES. So the LSF is the electric SIG not that we really sought that out it just kind of fell into being because the folks that organize the soaring Nats were willing to take on the electric Nats.

Ryan


Ryan, as your post notes, and as I knew, LSF is the SIG for Soaring, but only certain kinds of soaring.

LSF does run the ALES NATS but does not represent electric soaring based on its charter, bylaws and website. So it can't be the SIG for e-soaring.

As far as I can tell, and based on your post, there is no SIG for e-soaring. AMA asked LSF to run the ALES contest and they did. Just because you run the contest for e-soaring doesn't make you the SIG for e-soaring, especially if you exclude e-soaring pilots from membership.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #377

  • James Deck
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A little clarification is in order here. Decisions regarding the LSF and electric-powered soaring were made by the LSF, Sure, the AMA approached the LSF when NEAC was floundering with their NATS events. The AMA asked the LSF if it could take over the events. The ALES event at the NATS was an LSF idea. The leadership observed the rising popularity of ALES, the low turnout for other electric NATS soaring events, pruned those events, and put ALES where we could get a look at it. The AMA was not involved in the decision making process. While the LSF is an AMA SIG, it operates independently of the AMA. As the LSF run NATS soaring events are held at the AMA site in Muncie, the LSF does work closely with the AMA on the mechanics of putting on that event. Once more, so that it's perfectly clear, the LSF makes its own decisions.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #378

  • Don Harban
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It kinda makes me sad to see this discussion reduced to a discussion of whether or not soaring and/or electric soaring are ascendant or not. In the words of our ex-Secretary of State – “what possible difference does it make?” And it kinda makes me sad to see someone like Gordy infer that there are not enough sincere electric flyers to make this conversation worthwhile. I suppose the good news is that it is a sign that traditional soarers and the LSF are healthy enough to not waste any precious flying time on a little introspection about how the LSF might devote a little more time to its stated role of advancing model soaring.

Maybe its time for all of us to back up a little, take a deep breath and first resolve to do nothing that will harm model soaring – powered and unpowered. While there are many of us who fly both powered and unpowered sailplanes and many of us who belong to clubs where both disciplines are welcome, the current tone of some of this discussion at least opens the possibility that the cordial relationship that exists between us now might not continue to exist. Whether powered sailplanes have a future or not, this will not serve any of us very well. And everyone, both powered and unpowered enthusiasts should understand that the future of powered sailplanes will be what it will be – speculating about it now doesn’t serve any real, useful purpose. Nor does speculating about whether new participants (either powered or unpowered) will be as “sincere” as existing participants.

While I believe that finding a path toward an ESAP is a worthy goal, some of the comments here have me wondering if those of us who want to see this happen within the LSF are simply trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. (And I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone here.) So I asked myself why (other than the fact that I have had an acceptable experience with the LSF) I would want to see powered soaring included in the LSF tent.

The LSF basically does three things: 1) It administers a SAP for our enjoyment and education and to help promote sailplane competition. 2) It manages the National Championship at Muncie once a year and the Masters at Muncie every other year. 3) It serves as the SIG representing the interests of both powered and unpowered soaring before the AMA.

It is worth noting that Items #2 and #3 are not and were not directly part of what the original founders intended for the LSF. And it is also worth noting that, except to the extent that those items might be construed to advance soaring in the spirit of the Bylaws, the LSF does little else that actually advances soaring right now. It is also worth noting that, regardless of the reasons for devoting its support to the events in Muncie, that most of the LSF’s real heavy lifting is exclusively concentrated in a small geographic area.

And so, I find myself flopping all over the boat pressing to include powered soaring inside the LSF tent. I would be the first to acknowledge that there are some fairly obvious synergies between powered and unpowered soaring. But if the love is not there, guys, I am beginning to find myself asking why I should waste time with flowers and chocolates.

While there is most assuredly value in the LSF brand name and the tradition that it brings to the hobby, those values are not infinite. Yes, there is the SAP (or in our case maybe an ESAP). And an organization that devotes most of its physical effort to staging 1 ½ essentially regional competitions per year – competitions which, because of the nature of winch flying, are very complex, labor intensive and expensive. And most of the LSF’s remaining intellectual product is devoted to representing soaring before the AMA – with some significant amount of that effort related to rule making. Considering the direction of the current discussion, I can’t help but wonder why we would want our powered soaring interest in rulemaking being in the hands of people who do not want powered soaring in the first place.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever to the people who are working to make this happen or to those who are opposing it. But in any relationship, there comes a time to evaluate whether the prize you seek will be worth the effort – or whether other alternatives might result in a better outcome for everyone.

We should remember that Rule #1 is “First do no harm.” And if what we are doing would ultimately divide us, we ought to tread very cautiously.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #379

  • Gordon Stahl
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Ed says....

After all, LSF is an elitist organization by design, or so the history of LSF states. It is there to provide recognition for accomplishments. Not everyone cares about that recognition.

This is why many of the comments in this topic are simply stupid. Guys 'contributing' who don't have a clue about what they are talking about.

The LSF program is a pilot training course with each task designed to create a foundation for skills needed to improve. The tasks were created so that a pilot interested in improving his personal flying skills could self test himself.
How do I know that? .....I spoke to some of the founders and guys who flew with the founders when I did research for an article on the LSF. While you guess, suppose, and then type...I did the work.

An "Elitest Organization by design"? Provide some actual historical, or actual information that proves that statement....heck just define what it is you mean "...by design".

The LSF Organization is NOT there to provide recognition, however it does share news of each participants completion of levels for anyone interested.

It is NOT an "elitest organization" but the guys who do all the work do end up being part of an elite group of rc soaring pilots....elite because there are sooo few who do it.

LSF5's are an elite group because as I have stated before, it takes thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of effort and a commitment to the tasks only 130 rc soaring pilots in the history of the universe have completed.

"Powered or non powered sailplanes" ???? Its either powered or not. Electric motor launched sailplanes, hand launched sailplanes, or towed sailplanes. The moment the motor is turned back on after a launch, an electric launch sailplane becomes an electric powered airplane with long wings. We get guys showing up with 'warm liner' park flyer stuff claiming they should be able to fly on our club sailplane field because they have a 'glider'...."After all we do turn the motor off!..and on, and off, and on...." Until you, Ed Anderson, acknowledge this distinction, you will never understand anything about this proposal except that you 'feel' electric powered models should be part of the LSF Task program...

Why does any electric powered sailplane :-) flyer want to be included in the LSF Task Program....because they want to join the 'elite". IF its not for 'recognition' then just do the tasks without the paper work. Just do the tasks without the paper work, save the stamps.

And one last thing....the LSF membership has no need to "grow". It grows when an individual decides to get involved, not because some cool slogan like "Get the Bug!" entices them in.....okay there is that recognition thing....which you imply is a dirty thing.

I never ever once thought, "Wow if I complete all the LSF levels, every one will love me and think I'm really cool!" When I did complete the final task and got my Task Sheet back, I thought, " I can't believe I ate the whole thing!"

"I" did it, not the LSF Organization. I did it with my sailplanes, and with the support of my soaring friends and mentors....many who had not completed or participated in the LSF Tasks.

ED, since there are sooo many Electric Launch Contests and pilots exploding on the scene... name 5 electric launch sailplane pilots who you believe have the right stuff and interest to complete all 5 levels of the program. Just 5 names who want to become one of the elite. If you can't, then why the bother?

I know more rc sailplane pilots in the world than all of you contributing to this discussion. Know means, have flown with them, slept with some, dined with most. That likely includes ALES pilots too. Likely Larry comes in right behind me...yet you want to imply that you 'know' what those mysterious others want?

Those of you who want your words considered, think your words are worth considering, prove you believe your words have value by signing your name to your words. This isn't RC Groups where guys pretend to be someone they aren't, this is the LSF, you know guys who have decided to be a part of something more than just flying around with toy airplanes. Sign name to your words if you believe they are worth us reading. If they aren't worth the effort, well I guess then you know their value better than us.

I do ;-)
Gordy
PS, Don, I'm not sad, and I didn't infer that there weren't any sincere Electric Flyers, I said it out right and I asked for proof of 5 names. Who are these poor discriminated souls dying for the opportunity to join the 130-ish Elite?
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #380

  • Don Harban
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"I didn't infer that there weren't any sincere Electric Flyers, I said it out right and I asked for proof of 5 names. Who are these poor discriminated souls dying to join the 130-ish Elite?"

Gordy,

I most assuredly appreciate your clarification. It has certainly clarified how I feel about all of this.

Your snotty, elitist baloney illustrates better than anything I could ever say why I will not further participate in this process or the outcome of this process. I too have standards and I would not remotely consider belonging to the organization that you describe. And I would suggest that those who would waste their own precious time to obtain your approval to get lives of their own.

Don
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #381

  • Curtis Suter
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Gordy,
With all of your worldwide experience I would be interested in your thoughts if there is a difference with a glider that has an electric motor to propel it into the air that once it has been powered up and then turned off either electronically by an onboard limiter or by the pilot, no matter the time frame it has been on and then it is impossible to turn the motor back on until the battery has been manually disconnected and reconnected, i.e. Once the model has zero air or ground speed.

How would this compare to the LSF dream as we know it?

Curtis Suter, Jon, Rod to name a few from Montana that would like the journey. There must be two more in the World to make five.

Curtis
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #382

  • Clarence Ashcraft
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gordysoar wrote:
And one last thing....the LSF membership has no need to "grow". It grows when an individual decides to get involved,
I do ;-)
Gordy


Gordy you might feel that the LSF has no need to grow because you have completed your level V, so it has served your purpose.


" It grows when an individual decides to get involved,"

So Gordy what are You going to do to help individuals decide to become involved.?

If you keep the elite jerk attitude you and a part of the LSF will go the way of the dinosaur "out of sight and out of mind"

There are some of us in the LSF that are looking for productive ways to get people to fly sailplanes in hope that they can be mentored into flying with a winch and not just an electric sailplane.
Also there are many pilots out there today that started flying gas powered planes years ago and now they are flying gliders...do you see the point.

Clarence Ashcraft

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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #383

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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ryanw wrote: For the purpose of the eSAP I also entertain the idea of offering an alternate for the contest requirements, XC requirements, and slope requirements. My suggestions are:

Slope - offer an alternate of the 8 hour slope as a 4 hour thermal.
XC - offer on field electronic measured XC alternatives. Maybe some kind of GPS triangle or optically measured distance task

Contest - offer an alternate of some sort to this. The idea I came up with was to allow an alternate of using contest series for contest requirements. I sort of looked at some contest series (club, regional like OVSS/ESL, etc) and came up with this:

* Contest series would be of a minimum of 4 events with a minimum 3 counting
* Contests in the series would be required to occur on different days or at different locations
* Series must be pre announced (aka no taking 4 random contests that have already occured and roping together a series to try to make points for yourself)
* Minimum number of pilots competing in the series is 5+ minimum requirement for level. AKA 3rd level would require at least 15 pilots competing in the series, 4rth level would require 20 pilots competing in the series, etc.
* Individual contests have the same general requirements as regular contests (aka at least 3 chances to score, etc.)
* I'm thinking minimum of 5 pilots at any contest in the series

I think if we offer alternatives instead of changing the program that makes the program more inclusive and at the same time allows traditionalists to do the eSAP like the SAP if they so chose.


So everybody loves my above proposal so much that nobody felt anything else needed to be said? Everyone hates it so much they felt that the time was better spent churning some old negativity instead?

Ryan Woebkenberg - LSF 7233 L4
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