TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #136

  • Allen Strahm
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I think this is a GREAT idea! Lets get some new blood flying, and let us old guys with limited flying fields close by work our way up! I worked pretty hard getting ALES going here in NorCal, won the first ever ALES event at the SVSS field, Cd'd the first ever ALES event at the CVRC field. And it has really taken off here, attracting a lot of new pilots along the way. I want to be the John Baxter of ELSF! One of the clubs I belong to is CVRC, for the last two years, we have had an ALES class at the Fall Fest, worked flawlessly, so I see no issue with contest wins, heck I could CD an E-sailplane event here in NorCal that would get 20 pilots, and have! At a little tiny school, without all the support equipment! I endorse this idea 100%

Al Strahm
AMA 3959
LSF 6529

But, I do want a new ELSF shirt!
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #138

  • David Corven
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So, the way I see this going, as an Aspirant completes his (or hers) E-LSF Level 1 tasks they would be assigned the next consecutive E-LSF number which could be simply E-XXX (whatever the next consecutive number happens to be).
Beyond that when an ESAP pilot completes ESAP Level V, his assigned consecutive number would be EX (sample).
Howzat for simplicity. It supports the separation between our original SAP and the new ESAP as proposed.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #139

  • Hutton Oddy
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I agree totally with implementing an eSAP. I like the discussion about using common sense around start height (precision = approximate), and re-start (safety first). To some extent I think the focus on ALES has set the thinking around the current proposal, but if the altitude is interpreted liberally then it will work just fine.

I believe an eSAP will certainly bring in more Level 1 LSF'ers (a good thing). Access to contests in far flung places will to some extent limit progression to higher levels, but the important thing is to grow our community.

It could be worthwhile thinking about a range of different tasks that are possible with electrics for levels beyond 1. For example: level 2 eSAP 10 mins off 100m altitude, rather than 15 mins for string launch. Another issue might be around accuracy of landing. For example, F3J uses 200mm / point within 2 m, F5J the scale is 1m. This is to trade off more variables available to electrics (launch height) and consider fragility due to prop being up front. Just a thought.

Hutton
VH7377 (Australia)
LSF 7936
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #140

  • Ed Anderson
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VH7377 wrote: I agree totally with implementing an eSAP. I like the discussion about using common sense around start height (precision = approximate), and re-start (safety first). To some extent I think the focus on ALES has set the thinking around the current proposal, but if the altitude is interpreted liberally then it will work just fine.

I believe an eSAP will certainly bring in more Level 1 LSF'ers (a good thing). Access to contests in far flung places will to some extent limit progression to higher levels, but the important thing is to grow our community.

It could be worthwhile thinking about a range of different tasks that are possible with electrics for levels beyond 1. For example: level 2 eSAP 10 mins off 100m altitude, rather than 15 mins for string launch. Another issue might be around accuracy of landing. For example, F3J uses 200mm / point within 2 m, F5J the scale is 1m. This is to trade off more variables available to electrics (launch height) and consider fragility due to prop being up front. Just a thought.

Hutton
VH7377 (Australia)
LSF 7936


I actively fly both electric gliders and winched gliders for sport and competition. Once you come off the launch there is no real difference between the two in terms of their soaring ability. Yes there is a drag penalty from the folded prop but it is hardly noticeable and would be common for all who fly the eSAP program and contests.

Weight penalties are getting smaller and smaller and in some cases a glider that is available as pure and electric can come in nearly the same weight.

Electric contests use a landing tape measured in meters, not inches, so the dork landing is unnecessary. I don't know about F5J but most ALES contests do not allow skegs.

In my opinion, the tasks can remain the same between the two programs.

In my opinion, it is just an alternate launch method. After that it is soaring just like winch, HS and hand launch.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #141

  • Curtis Suter
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I stand corrected.

I was the one who started the launch height issue. Here's the actual wording:
All thermal duration tasks will be attempted with an electric sailplane equipped with an altitude limiting device set to a maximum launch height of 200 meters (656.17 feet) and a maximum motor run time of 30 seconds.

So I stand very much corrected; it is a setting not a hard limit. Those LSF rule writers are good!

Curtis
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #142

  • Ed Anderson
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Curtis Suter wrote: I stand corrected.

I was the one who started the launch height issue. Here's the actual wording:
All thermal duration tasks will be attempted with an electric sailplane equipped with an altitude limiting device set to a maximum launch height of 200 meters (656.17 feet) and a maximum motor run time of 30 seconds.

So I stand very much corrected; it is a setting not a hard limit. Those LSF rule writers are good!

Curtis


Curtis, forgive me if I am wrong, but I presume you do not fly electric soaring contests. What they are talking about is the device that has created the national swell around ALES, Altitude Limited Electric Soaring. The limit is on the launch. 30 second motor run or 200 meters, whichever comes first. When you hit the limit, the motor automatically shuts off.

This has become the preferred launch method over the old LMR, limited motor run, which became a power race. Now, no matter how much power you have you can't launch higher than 200 meters. So the trend is moving toward lighter planes and the foamies are doing quite well in the contests.

This has become so popular that there is now a separate forum on RC Groups devoted to ALES and a national league
that is web based. The rules are based on the AMA ALES NATs rules which, I presume, were developed and approved by LSF or at least with LSF's help.
www.rcgroups.com/altitude-limited-electric-soaring-ales-770/

Contests are popping up everywhere.

I am a member of the Eastern Soaring League. www.flyesl.org This has been a winch and hand launched regional competition league that sanctioned 34 contests this year. At this year's league meeting we voted to start a new division for electric soaring that will likely be dominated by ALES type contests, though FAI F5J will certainly qualify and I imagine an LMR contest would too though I don't know how much of that is still going on.

People who would never have dreamed of entering a string or hand launched soaring contest are excited about ALES and the trend is growing fast. The Parkflyer pilots are buying Radians and Radian Pros, getting ALES units and learning to soar. It is quite exciting.

If you knew all of this, forgive me for posting it.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #143

  • Curtis Suter
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eAnderson,

I thought I was famous. Darn. I was 3rd last year in the ALES League too. ;-) I started ALES in Montana and we have gone from three or four soaring guys to close to 20 in the last 2 1/2 years since I introduced this soaring format to them. We even had a two day event last August called the Montana Summer ALES and we had 28 folks from as far away at the East Coast, California, Canada and Oklahoma.

When I first read the proposal to the LSF I thought having the 200m setting was a hard altitude and that if one overflew the 200m then their LSF goal wouldn't count, but it's just a "setting" not an actual altitude restriction. So zooms would not terminate one's attempt. Not that it matters that much in my opinion anyway.

Thanks for the nice thorough rundown on ALES as I'm sure it'll help others too.

Curtis
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #144

  • Ed Anderson
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Curtis Suter wrote: eAnderson,

I thought I was famous. Darn. I was 3rd last year in the ALES League too. ;-) I started ALES in Montana and we have gone from three or four soaring guys to close to 20 in the last 2 1/2 years since I introduced this soaring format to them. We even had a two day event last August called the Montana Summer ALES and we had 28 folks from as far away at the East Coast, California, Canada and Oklahoma.

When I first read the proposal to the LSF I thought having the 200m setting was a hard altitude and that if one overflew the 200m then their LSF goal wouldn't count, but it's just a "setting" not an actual altitude restriction. So zooms would not terminate one's attempt. Not that it matters that much in my opinion anyway.

Thanks for the nice thorough rundown on ALES as I'm sure it'll help others too.

Curtis


Now I am embarrassed. A common state of being for me I am afraid.

I did a search of the RCG ALES forum for Suter and didn't find it so I figured you were not that guy. I did recognize your name but figured perhaps it was someone else with a similar name.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #145

  • Ingo Donasch
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I'm all in favor of the ESAP proposal as it is written of today!

in contrary to some of the previous posters in this thread I do not believe that launching with an electric motor is an advantage over the pure sailplanes nor do I think we should split hairs over launch altitude. for me the 200m rule is good enough as a rule of thumb since even if it differs by 10%, who cares? can you trust the logger to be that accurate? let the F5J folks worry about that! just keep the rules simple (as they are in the proposal)

the primary goal was and still is to improve our flying skills, motivate/mentor other flyers and have fun! with the eSAP we open the door to many more pilots and that's why I like it!

I hope the proposal will pass because I can't wait to start all over again!

thermals
ingo
(LSF#7369 Level V)
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #147

  • Ingo Donasch
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while I was talking about F5J in my previous post an issue occurred to me and that is related to the 200m rule. in F5J it is legal to exceed 200m (although with a severe penalty). would that then void a contest result?

I think this is unlikely to happen because the idea it to start thermal-ling from a very very low altitude rather then zooming into the sky, but clarification would be appreciated.

thanks
ingo
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