TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

jdadmin wrote: In answer to the question posed in Post 406: Yes, the LSF Board is monitoring this thread and will consider modifications to the original proposal. A fresh copy of the final proposal will accompany each email ballot. We chose a somewhat lengthy period to allow as many members as possible to take advantage of the opportunity to comment and question. Thanks to all who have done so and there's still plenty of time to register and comment if you haven't.
Jim Deck LSF President

Thanks for the reply Jim. Does it make sense to put the modified proposal out for comment before it goes out for a vote? I understand that the board may not be eager for another round of this fun. However, it might also give those participating a chance for final input and to generate some enthusiasm about getting it passed.

eAnderson wrote:

bAndersen wrote: snip...

Ed's summary is a good place to respond specifically:

I think LSF should embrace all forms of soaring -- Support
I think LSF should be the SIG for all forms of soaring to the AMA -- Support
I think LSF should embrace the goal of promoting soaring in all its various forms. -- Support

* eSAP and SAP have the same tasks but have different patches, decals, etc.
Not sure. TK's ESAP is similar but not matching. Please review TK's ESAP if you haven't recently. I don't think different patches and decals are necessary. The earlier proposal to simply show LSF IIIe should suffice. Frankly, I don't think it a big issue. I don't envision people displaying a level they haven't earned.

* Tasks for one do not count toward the other -- Support

* The launch height outlined in the current proposal is fine and is consistent with common practice and what is possible with pure gliders on a winch.
If you mean the launch height in TK's proposal I agree and support.

What about the restart question?

* For Levels 1, 2 and 3 - the pilot can have the restart set to on. If he restarts he fails the task. Period. -- Support

* For levels 4 and 5 tasks, restart must be disabled. -- Strongly disagree

* for all contests, the restart option will be according to the rules of the contest placing the LSF pilot on an equal footing with all the other pilots in the contest. It makes no sense to place an LSF 4 or 5 aspirant at a disadvantage in a contest just because he is working on eSAP 3, 4 and 5. -- Support

For level 4 and 5 tasks, once you are working on level 4 and 5 tasks you have demonstrated your skills and should be ready and confident to go out without a safety net, just like the pure glider guys. -- I don't think it's necessary, while it's not a great expense, it does involve another piece of gear, that may or may not be easy to access and change out. Mostly, I think it's not necessary to add this level of risk to very expensive gliders. If I have spent almost an hour or two trying to make the time and have two witnesses on hand, I'm not going to restart under any circumstances except to save my glider. The penalty of simply not making the task as you suggest for levels 1, 2, 3, is great enough.

Am I correct in assuming that the board will review all the posts and modify the current proposal listed in "News" if deemed wise and necessary? Will the modifications be posted ahead of the date to vote?

Respectfully

Barry Andersen
LSF 7319
AMA 1933 Contest Director; Leader-Admin
flying RC since 1959 (yep, built an ACE vacuum tube receiver, single channel escapement)

Barry,

In reference to the restart issue. I am in agreement with you but have made this recommendation in concession to those who object to a restart of any kind. And I can see their point.

If we have restarts as part of the eSAP, then an eSAP IV and V and an SAP IV and V, the advanced/elite levels, can be said to be not equal as the electric guys have a safety cushion that the pure gliders don't have. This creates a disparity at the Level IV and V levels. I don't think that is good.

I think there is logic in having these two levels truly equal and truly peers. Very few will ever pass through to level IV and V. I would not want a "lesser citizen" stigma to exist around the eSAP level IV and V. These are the top of the stack pilots and they should receive that level of respect with no * next to the accomplishment.

SAP level IV and V and eSAP level IV and V should be true peers and to accomplish that the eSAP guys need to give up the safety net.

That, at least, is the logic behind the proposal.

I do understand your point Ed, and I very much appreciate your patience and continued posts. Frankly, I think those that need to differentiate between the ESAP and SAP will always find something to carp about. No matter what, a two hour thermal task is no small feat. We will just have to disagree on this point. Also, be reminded that the current AMA/ALES rules do allow restarts with a zero round penalty. By that logic, contests using AMA/ALES rules would be seen as lesser than. It's not that big a deal to me, I just don't want to put a $2K glider at unnecessary risk.

ryanw wrote:

bAndersen wrote: Ryan asked for feedback about a post suggesting possible ESAP tasks. I think that all this has become so convoluted that it's best at this point to follow the KISS principle referred to earlier. The ESAP can be modified later as needed.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that if a new SAP is introduced like the current SAP that it will become unchangeable. Most folks I have talked to are not in favor of changing the SAP. That makes me think that people would not be in favor of changing an eSAP. Even if the bylaws of the eSAP make it easier to change the eSAP I think people will want to keep it as is once it is started.

Since my belief is that what is voted in will become what it is forever that is why I am so passionate about discussing what the eSAP should be. I know some people think the eSAP should mirror the SAP except be done with electric limiter planes. Personally I feel that we can do better and that is why I am trying to discuss this.

Ryan

Well, you are quite right that the current SAP is carved in stone. Certainly more so after all this discussion. I did recommend that there be added to the bylaw changes an indication that the ESAP is provisional. I don't know what the AMA time period is on provisional rules but it is not uncommon to have a new set of guidelines be put in place provisionally.

This is also why I think it important for those participating in the forum to see what the final proposal will be before it goes out for a vote. We certainly don't want the article XII section 2 2/3 living iv and V to apply from the outset. Some admin help would be appreciated here.

Barry

bAndersen wrote: snip...

I do understand your point Ed, and I very much appreciate your patience and continued posts. Frankly, I think those that need to differentiate between the ESAP and SAP will always find something to carp about. No matter what, a two hour thermal task is no small feat. We will just have to disagree on this point. Also, be reminded that the current AMA/ALES rules do allow restarts with a zero round penalty. By that logic, contests using AMA/ALES rules would be seen as lesser than. It's not that big a deal to me, I just don't want to put a $2K glider at unnecessary risk.

I don't agree with you on the contests. A contest is a measure of one pilot's ability against other pilots under a common set of rules and conditions. What those rules are are not the measure of the pilot's final standing in the contest, it is how he stands compared to the other pilots who flew under the same rules and conditions.

If you look at the SAP competition section it states what kinds of contests qualify but says nothing about the specifc or unique nature of the rules of the contest, local ground rules or special features of the contest. www.silentflight.org/index.php/lsf-program/lsf-tasks


One of the LSF officers may wish to weigh in on my interpretation of the SAP below.


You could fly a winch contest for points or for the win. I could fly a slope contest for points or for the win. Both our contests qualify under SAP with no distinction or valuation of one being "better" than the other.

You could fly a hi-start based contest with 100 inch landing tapes at 1 point per inch. I could fly a winch based contest with a runway landing task. Both would qualify and both would be equal under the SAP definitions.

As far as I understand the SAP rules for contests, I can fly F3J for contest credit and F3J allows relaunches. I can fly hand launch contests under the SAP program and relaunches are standard procedure there.

So I don't see any "lesser" based on whether a contest allows restarts with a zero for restart. It is not relevant under the contest section of SAP so I would not expect it to be relevant under the contest section of eSAP.

The ability to restart the motor would only be relevant under tasks for eSAP, as I see it.


As for not putting a $2K glider at unnecessary risk, I am with you. This is one of the reasons so few people achieve Level IV or Level V under the SAP. Either the cost is too high, the effort is too high or the risk is too high.

But if you want the recognition and to be treated as an equal for your accomplishments, then you have to be willing to pay the price, put in the effort and take the risk. If it was safe and easy everyone would be level V.

eAnderson wrote:

bAndersen wrote: snip...

I do understand your point Ed, and I very much appreciate your patience and continued posts. Frankly, I think those that need to differentiate between the ESAP and SAP will always find something to carp about. No matter what, a two hour thermal task is no small feat. We will just have to disagree on this point. Also, be reminded that the current AMA/ALES rules do allow restarts with a zero round penalty. By that logic, contests using AMA/ALES rules would be seen as lesser than. It's not that big a deal to me, I just don't want to put a $2K glider at unnecessary risk.

I don't agree with you on the contests. A contest is a measure of one pilot's ability against other pilots under a common set of rules and conditions. What those rules are are not the measure of the pilot's final standing in the contest, it is how he stands compared to the other pilots who flew under the same rules and conditions.

If you look at the SAP competition section it states what kinds of contests qualify but says nothing about the specifc or unique nature of the rules of the contest, local ground rules or special features of the contest. www.silentflight.org/index.php/lsf-program/lsf-tasks


One of the LSF officers may wish to weigh in on my interpretation of the SAP below.


You could fly a winch contest for points or for the win. I could fly a slope contest for points or for the win. Both our contests qualify under SAP with no distinction or valuation of one being "better" than the other.

You could fly a hi-start based contest with 100 inch landing tapes at 1 point per inch. I could fly a winch based contest with a runway landing task. Both would qualify and both would be equal under the SAP definitions.

As far as I understand the SAP rules for contests, I can fly F3J for contest credit and F3J allows relaunches. I can fly hand launch contests under the SAP program and relaunches are standard procedure there.

So I don't see any "lesser" based on whether a contest allows restarts with a zero for restart. It is not relevant under the contest section of SAP so I would not expect it to be relevant under the contest section of eSAP.

The ability to restart the motor would only be relevant under tasks for eSAP, as I see it.


As for not putting a $2K glider at unnecessary risk, I am with you. This is one of the reasons so few people achieve Level IV or Level V under the SAP. Either the cost is too high, the effort is too high or the risk is too high.

But if you want the recognition and to be treated as an equal for your accomplishments, then you have to be willing to pay the price, put in the effort and take the risk. If it was safe and easy everyone would be level V.

Geez Ed, I don't want to quarrel with you. I agree with you about contests, my bad, not a good example. My apologies.
My objections to the no restart stand nonetheless. Just one man's opinion. I think accomplishing the tasks for level IV and V are difficult as they should be. I'll support whatever is put forward regarding the restart issue. I just don't think it's necessary.

With respect Barry

bAndersen wrote: Well, you are quite right that the current SAP is carved in stone. Certainly more so after all this discussion. I did recommend that there be added to the bylaw changes an indication that the ESAP is provisional. I don't know what the AMA time period is on provisional rules but it is not uncommon to have a new set of guidelines be put in place provisionally.

I'm not sure what AMA provisional rule processes have to do with the eSAP. The eSAP is different from any Blue Book contest rules because it is apparently a yardstick how we compare pilots across generations. Since that is what it appears to be like baseball and steroids people won't be too keen on changing the rules of a eSAP.

I think the SAP is great. I think we could do a bit better. My opinion of what would be better might not match anyone else though.

Ryan

helletp wrote: Why don't you work on programming something that we can implement when the ESAP gets put in place.

Seems to me like we better either make sure the eSAP is changeable or get it right the first time.

I am not a great programmer but I will volunteer my time and skills what they are to help develop and manage a eSAP electronic documentation system.

Ryan

bAndersen wrote:
Geez Ed, I don't want to quarrel with you. I agree with you about contests, my bad, not a good example. My apologies.
My objections to the no restart stand nonetheless. Just one man's opinion. I think accomplishing the tasks for level IV and V are difficult as they should be. I'll support whatever is put forward regarding the restart issue. I just don't think it's necessary.

With respect Barry

Sorry about that Barry. I got a little carried away.

Ed

While those of us who follow electric soaring know how popular e-soaring competition has become, I post the following for the benefit of those who may not be aware.

Many of you will remember the Polecat Hand launch contests that happened every year. These were HUGE events. If you needed a large contest to get your level IV or V, this was a good one to attend. But hand launch has seen a serious decline in the Northeast, especially since the Polecat HL contest was discontinued.

Well Denny has moved into electric soaring in a big way and the Polecat ALES contest has become the same kind of event but for electric glider competitors. It is being held this year in June in PA.

It opened yesterday for registration. There is a 70 pilot cap and there are only 7 slots left as of this time.

When was the last time you saw a winch launched contest fill up like this?

E-soaring pilots like contests. And many of those registered for Polecat are LSF members and some have posted in this thread.

I think we could find more than a few there that would enjoy an eSAP challenge.

eAnderson wrote: While those of us who follow electric soaring know how popular e-soaring competition has become, I post the following for the benefit of those who may not be aware.

Many of you will remember the Polecat Hand launch contests that happened every year. These were HUGE events. If you needed a large contest to get your level IV or V, this was a good one to attend. But hand launch has seen a serious decline in the Northeast, especially since the Polecat HL contest was discontinued.

Well Denny has moved into electric soaring in a big way and the Polecat ALES contest has become the same kind of event but for electric glider competitors. It is being held this year in June in PA.

It opened yesterday for registration. There is a 70 pilot cap and there are only 7 slots left as of this time.

When was the last time you saw a winch launched contest fill up like this?

E-soaring pilots like contests. And many of those registered for Polecat are LSF members and some have posted in this thread.

I think we could find more than a few there that would enjoy an eSAP challenge.

Clearly motorgliders are going to take over the World but the question that remains unanswered for more that 4 years is why isn’t there an independant motorglider association? The ability to stand on it’s own merits, that’s the test of legitimacy.