TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #633

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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Sorry in advanced for the off topic.

I'm not really sure how much any of this matters, but I am a fan of information, accurate information, wherever possible.

Curtis the link you posted was almost certainly from a pilot in Europe launching off monofilement lines. He doesn't list his location but does list his name and he makes reference to the European championship. Given I'm not familiar with his name and I review a lot of USA contest data I think it is safe to say that he is in Europe and his stats might actually be from hand tows not winch launches. Since you don't own that data and were not there with the pilot I would be careful quoting it else you might be misquoting it.

Gordy's quote about launching to 200 meters being not exactly easy on a 500 foot US TD winch is probably accurate.

I typically carry a hand held hiking GPS in my pocket when I am at contests. It helps find sailplanes that don't land at the landing zone. If I remember I try to use it to measure the length of winch lines at contests I attend. I have found that at contests I attend in Indiana, Ohio, and Kentucky the winch lines tend to be between 575 and 600 feet.

I have a few logging altimeters. One is designed for model rockets and weighs 2 grams with its battery (I weighed it and adding a pigtail with servo connector to power it by the receiver would actually make it weigh more). It can only record one flight and then needs to have its data downloaded to a computer. It is a very convenient altimeter to use but because I don't tend to bring a laptop to contests it means if I use it I only log one flight a day.

I am not a great launcher. At the Masters I felt I was probably being out launched by 50-100 feet or so (that isn't an actual fact just something that I felt based on watching models). My feel though as I have sort of discovered isn't completely accurate. Improving my launch other than continuing to work to make sure that I don't have popoffs isn't really a priority of mine. I used to think in RES contests when I fly my Paragon I was getting out launched by a bunch. I have heard other folks lament that in RES contests Avas are at big time launch advantage. At the most recent RES contest I flew, the 2009 Mid South in Louisville, one Master Gordy Stahl was even there, I had my BASIC II altimeter in the model. That altimeter logs every flight. I had launches that ranged from 350-450 feet in launch height. Conditions that day were pretty still with an occasional down wind ish launch. The winches had retrievers. I didn't know what my Paragon's launches were until after the contest when I got home to download the data. Some pilots at that contest had Piccelarios in their models. If I think there will be these devices at contests I bring an FRS walkie talkie along to listen to their data. At this contest a pretty good pilot (he is a LV) with an Ava had one in his Ava and also had it set to announce altitude every 100 feet. I listened to his launches and he was also getting about 400 or so feet of altitude from launches. That made me realize I am not getting out launched that much by Avas which wasn't what I felt by watching the models. Having that information, for me at least, gives me a bit more confidence. Selfconfidence is pretty important.

At my most recent contest, and unlimited contest, in Muncie, IN, a small regional contest of 10 pilots flown from winches that are not great (good pilots could easily stall them) with a little under 600 feet of line (according to my GPS) I put the 2 gram altimeter in my Tragi 705X for the last round of the day. Not only were the winches at that contest kind of weak by the standard of what is used at the Nats and some other regional contests I attend also the lines had been breaking (not by me but by other pilots). That meant that myself and other pilots were not launching as hard as we might at a contest with better winches. That launch I recorded had about a 10-12 mph headwind coming mostly down the winch line. On that launch I launched to about 225 meters.

Once again, sorry for the off topic. Hopefully this information is useful to somebody. It is useful to me which is why I collect it. If anyone reading this doesn't care for me posting this information let the mods know and they can delete this post.

Ryan Woebkenberg, Carmel, Indiana, US and A. LSF 7233 AMA 544846
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #634

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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jwjenks wrote: All this talk about Launch. Please stop!


Oops! Saw this after I compiled my manifesto. Esteemed Mr. Jenks please skip over my post then.

:)

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #635

  • Curtis Suter
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Thanks Ryan.
Are we restricted from using Hand Tow or monofilament line in the LSF?

Curtis
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #636

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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Curtis Suter wrote: Thanks Ryan.


You are welcome, Curtis!

Curtis Suter wrote: Are we restricted from using Hand Tow or monofilament line in the LSF?


We are not. Hand Tow is clearly spelled out in the SAP as a legitimate launch method. I just suggest when you are quoting figures from another source be mindful when comparing ALES to a winch if you don't have all the information on the figures you are quoting.

I have misunderstood and misquoted others information in the past and people have misunderstood and misquoted what I have said in the past so it is a sin we are all guilty of! :)

Back a bit on topic, nobody commented on my post 598.

Happy New Years everyone!!!

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #637

  • Ed Anderson
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Launch height is irrelevant. Under ALES all gliders launch within 10% of each other. Under string and hand launch the disparity can be as wide as 50%.

So launch height is irrelevant to this discussion and, if anything, ALES/F5J brings equity to launch height and returns the contest and the task to soaring rather than launching.
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #638

  • Preston Heller
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #639

  • Don Harban
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Ed,

While the ALES rules make this 10 percent stipulation, it is not likely that current practice results in strict compliance with this.

I log all of my flights and I do not fly in a manner which is intended to gain any advantage from kinetic energy at the end of shut-off. In fact, I us the Altis switches and reduce the shut-off altitude settings to be certain that I am in compliance. That said, for a 700 watt average input Supra E (Geared Neu 1110) I consistently recorded altitude gains after motor shutoff in the 32 to 35 meter range with maximums over 40 meters. When I was flying that plane I used a cut-off setting of 175 meters for 200 meter contests.

My heavier Maxa is powered at about 600 watts (static) -- 500 watts in flight -- and it consistently exceeds the cutoff altitude by about 23 meters.

The lighter Maxa is powered at about 450 watts (static) and it consistently exceeds cutoff altitudes by about 16 meters.

While I am not sure it makes THAT much difference in the ESAP context, these variations are material and they are from planes which are not optimized or flown to optimize altitude gain after cutoff. In competition it DOES make a difference -- 30 meters is good for about 90 seconds with a Supra or Maxa. And the difference will be exaggerated when lower launch altitudes are selected i.e. 30 meters on top of 150 instead of 30 on top of 200. Further, it can be demonstrated that excess altitude gains far in excess of those I have observed without any weight penalty to the plane. The Supra, for example, could have easily been taken to over 1000 watts with a simple prop change -- no increase in plane weight. And the expected zoom by someone flying for maximum gain would easily exceed 50 meters.

Again with the variation reasonably expected from winch launching and the fact that the SAP allows equipment configurations which are capable of very substantial launch altitudes in excess of the typical launches seen in contests, it probably doesn't matter for LSF tasks. But it WILL for ALES comps.

Happy Landings,

Don
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #640

  • Ray Hayes
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Forgot what could be the most important part of my contest ... :-)

The landing task set up: LSF Level l and Level ll, In or Out, 25 and 75 point values.

Ray
Woodys Forever
WWW.Skybench.com
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #641

  • Ed Anderson
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dHarban wrote: Ed,

While the ALES rules make this 10 percent stipulation, it is not likely that current practice results in strict compliance with this.

I log all of my flights and I do not fly in a manner which is intended to gain any advantage from kinetic energy at the end of shut-off. In fact, I us the Altis switches and reduce the shut-off altitude settings to be certain that I am in compliance. That said, for a 700 watt average input Supra E (Geared Neu 1110) I consistently recorded altitude gains after motor shutoff in the 32 to 35 meter range with maximums over 40 meters. When I was flying that plane I used a cut-off setting of 175 meters for 200 meter contests.

My heavier Maxa is powered at about 600 watts (static) -- 500 watts in flight -- and it consistently exceeds the cutoff altitude by about 23 meters.

The lighter Maxa is powered at about 450 watts (static) and it consistently exceeds cutoff altitudes by about 16 meters.

While I am not sure it makes THAT much difference in the ESAP context, these variations are material and they are from planes which are not optimized or flown to optimize altitude gain after cutoff. In competition it DOES make a difference -- 30 meters is good for about 90 seconds with a Supra or Maxa. And the difference will be exaggerated when lower launch altitudes are selected i.e. 30 meters on top of 150 instead of 30 on top of 200. Further, it can be demonstrated that excess altitude gains far in excess of those I have observed without any weight penalty to the plane. The Supra, for example, could have easily been taken to over 1000 watts with a simple prop change -- no increase in plane weight. And the expected zoom by someone flying for maximum gain would easily exceed 50 meters.

Again with the variation reasonably expected from winch launching and the fact that the SAP allows equipment configurations which are capable of very substantial launch altitudes in excess of the typical launches seen in contests, it probably doesn't matter for LSF tasks. But it WILL for ALES comps.

Happy Landings,

Don


Don, I am surprised you are pushing this point but since you want to talk launches, let's talk launches. 40 meters beyond 200 is a 20% overage. OK. This seems to be a big issue for you as it seems you have set up your gliders to exceed the target launch height and you want to bring this up as a concern.

Let's see if there is any historical precedent for this concern in the LSF, AMA or SAP history.

I go to run SAP tasks or to fly in a TD contest that qualifies for SAP credit. I am flying my Spirit or BOT or some other entry level to midrange pure glider, You launch your Uber moldie off the same winch I am using. I am hitting 350 feet and you are hitting 700 feet. You are launching 100% higher than I am.

Let's say we are both flying Supras. I launch to 500 feet and you launch to 700 feet based on your greater talent. I see this in contests all the time even when people are flying the same plane. And no one declares the guy launching high is violating any rules of the contest, or is disqualified for SAP credit.

This was never a concern in the SAP or winched TD contests, but it is being raised as a concern for ESAP? Why is a possible 20% variation of ESAP launch a big deal for you but a 50% to 100% variation (or more) for string launch is not a concern?

Absolute launch height is irrelevant, has always been irrelevant and should remain irrelevant based on the traditions established by the SAP and AMA rules. SAP does not define a maximum launch height nor does AMA nor have I seen this at any TD contests that I have ever attended.

The SAP defined the maximum launching equipment that could be used. The ESAP sets the maximum target setting on the altitude limiter. Neither defines the launch height, just the profile of the launch equipment. And so ESAP is following the tradition and the method set by the SAP and AMA.

What about over launching in ALES contests? Well, that is why we have rules and CDs. If a CD is concerned about a 20% launch variation then he will impost the appropriate controls to address it. AMA doesn't require this. SAP doesn't require it for TD contests so why should it be such a big deal for ALES and ESAP?

ALES has created the most uniform launch system that has ever existed in soaring under AMA rules. It is not absolutely precise because it does not need to be precise. But it is WAY more consistent than anything that has ever existed in the string launch world for AMA TD or SAP purposes.

So why are we discussing this? Perhaps you plan to suggest that we modify the SAP to impose a launch height restriction on SAP tasks? The devices exist to do it, so why don't we do that? The answer is that it is irrelevant, it has always been irrelevant and it should remain irrelevant. We don't do it in TD and we are not likely to do it in ESAP.

Hopefully the horse is now totally dead along with the topic of launch height variation.


It has been said in this thread that there are less and less big TD contests so it can be harder to meet SAP task requirements. Well, the cost of a high end glider that can launch as high as the high end moldies has placed this out of the price range of the average guy. Maybe if we imposed launch limits on TD contests more people could afford contest grade planes and there would be more contests.

Not suggesting that we should actually do this for TD, but at least ALES is bringing more uniform launching to the contest world and you can hit that height with an RTF Radian with a $50 upgrade on the prop and the battery. Anyone can launch to the target height. Now it is all about soaring and landing skills.
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #642

  • Preston Heller
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I could be wrong, but hasn't this topic been covered?
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