TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #713

  • craig trout
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yes go for it
with amendment to landing tasks,
New pilots are often faced with using an aircraft with no drag control devices, on rather fragile nosed low cost aircraft. an example would be a stock radian, or a Goldberg gentle lady kit bash, its not as simple anymore as glassing the whole nose over like we used to with the pure glider. to keep an E-glider airworthy & make the more difficult landings. with the added mass of motors in the nose, and no more solid wood block on the business end, I feel they may not be on an even (or parallel) footing with the normal SAP,

We don’t want to discourage pilot participation over having an overly difficult landing task, that breaks wooden bulkheads out on the gentlest landings. let alone the cost of a plastic spinner/prop hub, or prop blades proprietary to the stock aircraft,

Therefor I propose the following simple amendment in the spirit of the parallel ESAP,

Use the same landing tape for the regular SAP, but just a TBD length longer, & adding markings farther away from center with an “E” for those competing in the ESAP Thanks Craig
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #715

  • Ed Anderson
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Just received my ballot today. voted yes
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #716

  • Curtis Suter
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When does voting close? I can't find it anywhere?

Curtis
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #717

  • James Deck
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Voting closes on February 13,2014. Every attempt is being made to ensure qualified members received their ballot. If you did not receive a ballot and think you've been missed, please send your LSF number and name to This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it..
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I VOTED BY MAIL 3 years 10 months ago #718

  • Tim McCann
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In solidarity with non-internet LSF members who have been denied the opportunity to vote, I cast my symbolic vote on the amendment to dumb down the LSF by USPS mail, in accordance with the bylaws. It will be interesting to see if my vote is included in the final count.
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #719

  • Ed Anderson
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Is there a paper ballot process?

I plan to put a note in my weekly newsletter and will include how to vote on this. I have copied the note about what to do if you did not get an e-mail ballot. So, that is covered.

I was one who did not get an e-mail ballot due to a minor clerical error. However, because I knew about the vote I got my e-mail fixed and voted by e-mail. And so I will spread the word to other LSF members.

But there may be some who don't have e-mail so they can't vote by e-mail. I would like to get the word out to them too, But how can they vote? Is there a form they can mail in by regular mail? Someone to call?

What would be the best approach? My newsletter goes out Thursday evening and I would like to include this.
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #720

  • Tim McCann
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rglover wrote: This LSF Board, and its predecessor, have discussed the various proposals regarding an ESAP made by interested members and non-members for several years now. Some of the board and many of the members at large believe that the LSF can administer an ESAP, and should do so for the benefit of electric launched soaring pilots. The LSF Board may or may not unanimously support the current proposal, but we do support the memberships’ right to decide on its adoption.

What the board has not decided to do is establish a program of new tasks specifically aimed at electric launched sailplanes. Such tasks should come from the members of the electric community who have some clue as to what they want. Please note that as an LSF board member I do not have any great knowledge as to what those tasks might be, and consider myself unqualified to make such decisions. Board members have repeatedly asked members of the electric soaring community for input, and while some valuable input has been received there has been no clear alternative program put forward that the LSF is interested in pursuing. Indeed,no clear consensus has emerged from the electric community to date.

The LSF is pretty good at administering the current tasks. Lacking a better proposal after several years of discussion the board decided to let the membership decide the issue at hand. You get a vote. The fact that after all of these years of discussion you still can't make up your mind is significant. The LSF can administer a separate database for ESAP participants, but if the program looks significantly different than the current SAP things rapidly become untenable.

In an ideal world, the electric community would have already established and be administering their own program, establish their own SIG with the AMA, and run their own Nats,leaving the LSF to do what the LSF has always done. In this world that has not yet happened, and shows little sign of happening in the near future. The LSF has been given an opportunity to aid in starting a few more modelers down what we believe to be the right path. That’s pretty much the only choice to be made here.

There have been minor housekeeping details brought up, but right now they are immaterial. If the membership decides to move forward, we’ll get together and figure it out.

Whether this proposal wins or loses hinges on the vote of all LSF members, as it should. I have little insight as to what would actually be the best outcome, time will tell as always.

PS - I have the perfect solution to keep the member numbers distinct. The old guys will all have to use binary. The new guys will get roman numerals. The sticker guys will get rich. Or, we could just add columns to our database and populate it with individual members' records as we’ve always done. I promise we won’t ever run out of numbers, they are infinite. Much like the wisdom of our membership.


Rob:
I'm confused, did you abstain from voting?
Per the bylaws, the board votes first then the membership. So, what was the board's vote count?
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #721

  • Rob Glover
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Tim -

I'm sorry that you are confused. I will try and clarify what has and is happening.

As part of my duties as a member of the LSF Board of Directors I voted to allow this issue to be presented to the LSF Membership for their vote. That was a YES vote on my part, and the motion was carried.

Prior to this vote the board worked out what would be presented and how to present it. We worked within our understanding of the by-laws, the associated costs, the current capabilities of our volunteer staff to administer such a program, and our understanding of the wishes of the membership. Of these factors the driver was the wishes of the membership. Many of our members had approached us regarding e launched soaring over the course of several years. It had become obvious, even to me, that there was something new and interesting that many of our members thought might be of benefit. The members of the BOD also listened to those members who aren't quite so vocal or adamant as yourself, on both sides of this issue. Sometimes the quiet voices make the most sense.

At any rate, the issue has been presented to the LSF Membership (yourself included) for their collective decision.

As a currently active member of the LSF, apart from being a board member, I also voted on the issue itself. I was able to vote by email, no stamps (aka money) were wasted by LSF or me. Seems pretty simple, but then I am not intentionally trying to obstruct the process. I have not made my vote public.

I have attempted to present the issue on it's merits without attempting to tell anyone else how to vote. I can live with the outcome either way, and will certainly respect the wishes of the LSF Membership. As a member of the LSF Board that seems to be the responsible course of action.

Rob Glover
LSF Secretary, LSFV #100
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #722

  • Tim McCann
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rglover wrote: Tim -

I'm sorry that you are confused. I will try and clarify what has and is happening.

As part of my duties as a member of the LSF Board of Directors I voted to allow this issue to be presented to the LSF Membership for their vote. That was a YES vote on my part, and the motion was carried.

Prior to this vote the board worked out what would be presented and how to present it. We worked within our understanding of the by-laws, the associated costs, the current capabilities of our volunteer staff to administer such a program, and our understanding of the wishes of the membership. Of these factors the driver was the wishes of the membership. Many of our members had approached us regarding e launched soaring over the course of several years. It had become obvious, even to me, that there was something new and interesting that many of our members thought might be of benefit. The members of the BOD also listened to those members who aren't quite so vocal or adamant as yourself, on both sides of this issue. Sometimes the quiet voices make the most sense.

At any rate, the issue has been presented to the LSF Membership (yourself included) for their collective decision.

As a currently active member of the LSF, apart from being a board member, I also voted on the issue itself. I was able to vote by email, no stamps (aka money) were wasted by LSF or me. Seems pretty simple, but then I am not intentionally trying to obstruct the process. I have not made my vote public.

I have attempted to present the issue on it's merits without attempting to tell anyone else how to vote. I can live with the outcome either way, and will certainly respect the wishes of the LSF Membership. As a member of the LSF Board that seems to be the responsible course of action.

Rob Glover
LSF Secretary, LSFV #100

Rob
My voting by mail was not to obstruct the process but just the opposite, to illustrate that a substantial portion of the membership have been denied the the opportunity to participate in clear violation of bylaws. I look forward to reading the minutes of the board’s vote authorizing the vote by the membership of the most significant change in the history of this organization.
Tim McCann
LSF V #79
AMA Contest Director
AMA Leader Member
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #723

  • Red Scholefield
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tMcCann wrote: Rob
My voting by mail was not to obstruct the process but just the opposite, to illustrate that a substantial portion of the membership have been denied the the opportunity to participate in clear violation of bylaws. I look forward to reading the minutes of the board’s vote authorizing the vote by the membership of the most significant change in the history of this organization.
Tim McCann
LSF V #79
AMA Contest Director
AMA Leader Member


I am confused.
1. Substantial portion denied opportunity to participate. What is a substantial portion?

2. What specifically in the bylaws was violated?
For referance:
ARTICLE XII - AMENDMENTS
Section 1 – These Bylaws, and any supplements or attachments, may be altered, amended, deleted or replaced by the affirmative vote of two-thirds (2/3) of the Executive Board and subsequent concurrence of a simple majority of the votes cast by active members, except the super requirements contained in Section 2.
Section 2 – Proposed amendments to Article XII Section1, and Section 2, and Proposed amendments to Article XVI - LSF Soaring Accomplishment Program must meet the requirements contained in Article XII Section 1 and That vote must also contain affirmative votes of two-thirds (2/3) of the then current living Level IV’s and Level V’s.
Section 3 - Proposed amendments must be submitted to the active members via individual communications, and mass communication announcement methods such as the Model Aviation and RCSE, and must allow a minimum of thirty days (30) days from date of mailing for response and consideration. Such dates must be so stated on the ballot.

Red Scholefield
AMA 951 LSF i #412
Contest Director
Leader Member ADMIN & SCIENTIFIC
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