TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #169

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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I am disappointed that this proposal only includes ALES and omits other forms of electric soaring. I am of the opinion that an eSAP should be different from the existing SAP. It should embrace all or at least as many aspects of electric soaring as possible. ALES is great but it is just one aspect of electric soaring.

Ryan Woebkenberg
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #170

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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We have a real opportunity here to make a program that is current and embraces things for the future. It seems that we are simply taking the existing program and making an ALES version of it. Honestly I think we are better than that.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #171

  • Preston Heller
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So do you think the current SAP should be changed as well? You see, I don't think we're missing out on anything. The SAP has served us well for many years. Get the program up and running then fine tune in a year or two. And which other forms of e-sailplane flying are excluded?
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #172

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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helletp wrote: So do you think the current SAP should be changed as well?


I believe the SAP should remain unchanged.

helletp wrote: And which other forms of e-sailplane flying are excluded?


Anyone that flies without altitude limiters. LMR, folks who believe that the ability to restart the motor is an important part of e soaring and should be embraced, etc. People are doing lots of new and neat things with electric sailplanes and other new technologies.

We could develop a program that is interesting to a totally new kind of flyer and still be interesting to people who like the existing program and like ALES.

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #173

  • Preston Heller
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So they should be able to launch to 2,000 feet and then accomplish their tasks? Yeah, I'll have to think about that one.

But you could put together a new proposal. I'd love to see it.

And you believe the original SAP should remain the same, which of course, it will, but the new and separate one should have all kinds of new things in it? Isn't the original one good enough to emulate at first, then change as needed? Or is it better to think up some new tasks that haven't been field tested and put them into the eSAP now?

Preston
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #174

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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helletp wrote: r is it better to think up some new tasks that haven't been field tested and put them into the eSAP now?


It worked great when the SAP was devised. A half dozen or so people got together and came up with some tasks, some of which had never been done before. I have written several proposals but I have came to realize that I personally am not the person that people in RC soaring are going to follow. I think the proposed eSAP is OK and will probably vote for it. I just think we could do so much better.

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #175

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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Assuming this new eSAP is implemented as proposed what about L5 witnesses? Will only eSAP L2+ be qualified for eSAP L5 tasks?
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #176

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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I would like to propose that this proposal be modified a bit to be a bit more inclusive of non ALES electric soaring. To that end I would propose that allowing electric launch of 200 meter altitude cutoff (and don't even worry about the zoom, really it doesn't matter) or 15 second single motor run. That makes it a bit more inclusive and explicitly allows small clubs that host things like 1 design Radian events to host small contests that can be used for L2 and maybe L3 without everyone needing a switch. On a 30+ minute flight task what does it really matter if somebody wants to try to zoom some or launch to the moon? That same person could be doing that in the SAP with 300 meters of mono on a strong winch but even with a 1200+ foot start you still have 30 minutes (or 60 or 120) you need to work lift for.

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #177

  • Wayne Norrie
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lincoln wrote: My mind is kind of in a blur, but if I'm not mistaken, I've read all the posts in this thread by now.

There's a point in here which I am a bit unclear on, though previously I just assumed that the answer was no. Probably because the phrase "separate but equal" makes me see red! Please forgive me if this was clearly stated and I missed it. It's clear that for the eSAP, you do your tasks with an electric, and for the regular SAP, you mustn't. But how about contests? I haven't seen a clear answer on that. Can someone in the eSAP use points from a TD contest? Vice versa? Since everyone in the contest has the same advantages and disadvantages, you can't truly say one or the other is easier to win*. As a level IV, I'm concerned that TD may keep shrinking until I can't get to very many 20 person contests. This already seems to be happening with DLG, which I really enjoy. I'll admit that, with my skills as they are, I may have to go to a lot of contests to get my three wins. If ALES wins can count, I can get to more contests. Also, this will motivate me to attend and support more ALES contests.

Personally, I think ALES or something like it is the future of RC soaring, even if all those gliders do have ugly spinning things.

Lincoln Ross
LSF 6011
Level IV

P.S. I think it might be too soon to enshrine 30 seconds and 200 meters. We might see an unanticipated development. Chances are, we will. Seems like neither ALES or hlg's popularity were anticipated.


*Last weekend, at the Pumpkin Fly, I was third in TD and something like third from last in ALES!


Lincoln, I have no idea where this will all end up but I would love to see a contest where e-launch and string launch pilots compete side by side be allowed for LSF contest points. The contest would be scored as a single event and the entrants would take their earned points and apply them to their respective programs. Allowing this would create more opportunities for LSF contest of all levels to be held in more places. Case in point. At many of our monthly contests this past summer we had a mix of pilots show up to fly. Often the breakdown would be something like 4 e-launch flyers and maybe 3 string launch flyers. We all competed in the same event but obviously it could not be scored for LSF.

I would be curious to hear what other people think about this. I am certain that there will be some old guard who will consider this blasphemy. Hopefully it can be discussed on its merits and not as an us against them kind of thing.

Wayne
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #178

  • Preston Heller
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It's an interesting idea, Wayne, but somewhat outside the parameters of an ESAP discussion. Perhaps down the road a bit it would be worth talking about.

We are trying to talk about the eSAP proposal, as put forward by Jim Deck. Do you like it, not like it, have suggestions for the tasks, etc? I believe the idea of flying winch launch and e-sailplanes in the same contest is too complex an issue and just premature at this time.

However, somewhere down the road I could see a time when there was a winch launch vs. e-Launch National Championship, kinda like the old NFL vs the AFL. That could be some real kick ass fun.

Preston
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