TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #724

  • Tim McCann
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RedScholefield wrote:

tMcCann wrote: Rob
My voting by mail was not to obstruct the process but just the opposite, to illustrate that a substantial portion of the membership have been denied the the opportunity to participate in clear violation of bylaws. I look forward to reading the minutes of the board’s vote authorizing the vote by the membership of the most significant change in the history of this organization.
Tim McCann
LSF V #79
AMA Contest Director
AMA Leader Member


I am confused.
1. Substantial portion denied opportunity to participate. What is a substantial portion?

2. What specifically in the bylaws was violated?
For referance:
ARTICLE XII - AMENDMENTS
Section 1 – These Bylaws, and any supplements or attachments, may be altered, amended, deleted or replaced by the affirmative vote of two-thirds (2/3) of the Executive Board and subsequent concurrence of a simple majority of the votes cast by active members, except the super requirements contained in Section 2.
Section 2 – Proposed amendments to Article XII Section1, and Section 2, and Proposed amendments to Article XVI - LSF Soaring Accomplishment Program must meet the requirements contained in Article XII Section 1 and That vote must also contain affirmative votes of two-thirds (2/3) of the then current living Level IV’s and Level V’s.
Section 3 - Proposed amendments must be submitted to the active members via individual communications, and mass communication announcement methods such as the Model Aviation and RCSE, and must allow a minimum of thirty days (30) days from date of mailing for response and consideration. Such dates must be so stated on the ballot.

Red Scholefield
AMA 951 LSF i #412
Contest Director
Leader Member ADMIN & SCIENTIFIC


NON INTERNET MEMBERS my not even know a vote is taking place. An organization operating outside the bylaws is defunct. Kudos to Gil for his fidelity to the bylaws.

ARTICLE V - POLICY
Section 1 - The LSF shall be a voluntary association of individuals with common interests and, as a physical conglomerate, shall levy no membership dues, hold no general meetings, assign no responsibilities and impose no obligation for membership other than: (a) support of the philosophies and concepts set forth in these bylaws, and (b) active pursuit of R/C soaring proficiency.
Section 2 - The LSF shall perform all official functions and provide all official services by means of written communication and e-mail messages.
Section 3 - The LSF shall be a non-profit organization supported by voluntary contributions and by fees and charges for specific services and goods. The LSF shall offer no industrial or commercial membership.


ARTICLE XII - AMENDMENTS
Section 1 – These Bylaws, and any supplements or attachments, may be altered, amended, deleted or replaced by the affirmative vote of two-thirds (2/3) of the Executive Board and subsequent concurrence of a simple majority of the votes cast by active members, except the super requirements contained in Section 2.
Section 2 – Proposed amendments to Article XII Section1, and Section 2, and Proposed amendments to Article XVI - LSF Soaring Accomplishment Program must meet the requirements contained in Article XII Section 1 and That vote must also contain affirmative votes of two-thirds (2/3) of the then current living Level IV’s and Level V’s.
Section 3 - Proposed amendments must be submitted to the active members via individual communications, and mass communication announcement methods such as the Model Aviation and RCSE, and must allow a minimum of thirty days (30) days from date of mailing for response and consideration. Such dates must be so stated on the ballot.
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #725

  • craig trout
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We learned this the hard way. with our string launch soaring only club. we lost membership due to the convenience & small field capability of E gliders & ALES. a subgroup of regulars formed and we thought it was just a fad. it was fact! after 5 years & losing 75 percent of participation. fortunately we were able to downsize ancillary equipment the number of winches etc. and hang on by our fingernails following our constituency, membership is slowly climbing again. regular participation is up & the camaraderie is back. the over all IMAGE of us as a cohesive group in the public eye does not hurt either. (not to mention revenue from entry fees & other activities)

Lessons learned?
#1 The future is Indifferent! it wont stop coming. or even slow down by dragging feet over details. it doesn't even care if you like it. choose to ignore it. or wait around watching & thinking about it.

#2 Change is inevitable!. even if at first it tastes bad. smells funny. or looks different. It will happen!
It is not a straight line. don't change. adapt or turn with it, & the outlook is not so good.

Thank you
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #726

  • Ed Anderson
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I agree cjtroutlsf4. If you don't embrace the trends you get left behind and become irrelevant. Some people care about this and some don't.

Our soaring club was all pure gliders for decades. As membership declined it was opened to electric launch, and the numbers came back up. If it had not been opened to electric I would not be a member today and I would have never discovered the joy of soaring.

Now we have a healthy soaring club that likely would have died off. And a lot of those electric soaring pilots are now flying winch/HS too. In fact the number of pilots who own their own winches in our club has probably doubled in the last 10 years.

Based on a survey I have had running RCG for the last 5 days, of the 109 who responded so far, about 80% are flying TD (string). However 80% are also flying e-gliders. And roughly half of each are flying contests. So it seems that e-soaring pilots are nearly as likely to fly competitively as pure glider pilots. Perhaps they would also enjoy an eSAP to help guide them in their skills development.

If you are interested you can find the survey here.
www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2086304
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #727

  • craig trout
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It is no secret we got caught in our own antiquated By-laws from the 80s. We wasted a lot of time thinking the problem would go away. and discussing what to do. and how to deal with it. (in our case the founders, myself among them) started looking around at what happened to a lot of other SIGs that popped up. & few years later became irrelevant. it wasn't an easy pill to swallow for anyone on either side of the fence. but if we were going to remain active chartered & have a voice. & any membership base at all. the sacred cow of By- laws had to die, Keeping the club alive was only going to happen with increased membership.

I don't mean to rock anyone's boat here. but the facts are the Windows operating system is 30 years old! it was hard for us too in the burgeoning internet revolution Starting with Print & snail mail. then the BBS. & so on until we even had to give up the E-news letter. & now were using only E-mail and a forum. But we are still active. www.casl.net/

With todays technology even the 8 hour slope flight is irrelevant. it becomes just a physical endurance test. we already know from flying until the batteries are dead, that it is possible under the right conditions to keep an RC sailplane aloft all day just on thermal flying.

Things like that can be replaced with other direct skill related tasks. that are more important. one possibility with E-gliders would be. demonstrating learned skills on bench setup of a proper and safe electric propulsion system. With LIPO batteries & ALES controls.... let alone the other dangers involved who hasn't at least came very close to Cooking a LIPO battery?. The possibilities for the future could be endless.

Only in the last 2 years did I pick up on ALES. I could be officially called one of the old Die hard hold outs. & still fly TD gliders. but the handwriting was on the wall. launch altitude "bust out" or zoom percentage with modern controls is just so small. that picking your air & soaring is the main skill. notice how fast winch wars died?. & Then the sharp guy with a high-start stayed up longer?. or the guy with a discus throw HL picks the morning air and stays up for an hour. To me that's a lot closer to soaring and the spirit of LSF. thank you.
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #728

  • Scott Whitney
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Has E-LSF passed? I have two "newbie" friends with Radians and have convinced them the LSF Accomplishment Program will improve their skills and enjoyment of soaring.

And I agree with a previous post: The future will arrive and steamroll over you unless you adapt. The most predicable words of a failed business are, "But that's the way we've always done it".

Just look at DLG. It's only been around for a few years and has become an dominant force in RC soaring. ALES is doing the same.

And, changes are becoming mainstream at a faster pace.
The telephone took 20 years to become mainstream
The TV took 10
The iPad took 1

ALES / electric gliders (if they already haven't) will become the dominant form of RC soaring.
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #729

  • James Deck
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The ballots are still trickling in. Voting ceases at midnight on Feb.13th. The results will be announced shortly thereafter.
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #732

  • James Deck
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The ballots should be in and counted today so I am closing this topic. Thanks to all who took the time to participate.
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