TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #199

  • Preston Heller
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tMcCann wrote: Why haven’t these programs been more successful?
League for Electric Soaring
www.les.windmillpro.com/index.htm
Sportsman’s Soaring Program
sportsmanssoaringprogram.com/


Obviously because you didn't participate. ;)

But if you want a more serious answer I'll give it a go.

I believe the LES is pretty much a one man operation. Not a recipe for success. And was premature.

Who says the SSP is not successful? There are certainly members doing tasks.

Technological advances and land development, among other reasons, have come together to provide a
climate in which e-soaring is now much more prevalent and growing every day.

So I would say the time is right for the new ESAP.

An idea whose time has come is quite powerful, wouldn't you agree? But not to worry, winch launch
will continue on.

Excuse me, I have to change the film in my camera. ;)

Preston
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #200

  • Don Harban
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Not so much a desire to make them equal as to elevate them above trivial and boring. Also, to come up with flight tasks which are more useful in developing the skills that are necessary for competition.

Back in the '70s the LSF program was very useful as a tool for building clubs and for building interest in competition. Back then the flight tasks were relatively more difficult and competitions were both more abundant and the overall skill level in them was much lower than it is today. There are certainly people who are innately drawn to compete. But there are many more who are not inclined to do so. For the club I helped found in SLC, the LSF program served as an excellent "hook" to entice guys to come out and compete. It presented challenges that were more or less proportionate to the challenges of competition at that time. And it was balanced enough to camouflage its real purpose -- to provide a supply of mullets to fill out the ranks of competitors to make its numbers work.

Put another way, the TOTAL program has to have enough meat in it to get guys to travel, both near and far, to compete -- to give them enough to do when they are not competing to justify the effort required to compete. As successful as ALES is, it is not likely that it will ever spawn the interest in local competition that we saw during the 70's and early 80's.

I suppose it can be argued that we ought to copy the existing SAP for a the new ESAP because we can't know how changes might work out. If you will take the time to read the history of the current SAP, you will discover that this is exactly the same situation the writers of the original SAP found themselves in. They included tasks that they acknowledged at the time had not been done with no assurance that they COULD be done.

The one thing that is a virtual certainty is that WHATEVER we agree to for starters will, from that moment on, be cast in stone. The people who achieve whatever Levels under it will insist, like the current SAP guys, that it would be wrong and unfair to change the rules that they came up under.

Consider giving guys more to do when they are not competing. That's all.

Happy Landings,

Don
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #201

  • Ed Anderson
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tMcCann wrote: Why haven’t these programs been more successful?
League for Electric Soaring
www.les.windmillpro.com/index.htm
Sportsman’s Soaring Program
sportsmanssoaringprogram.com/


Never heard of LES - against what goal are you measuring their success?

Sportsman's Soaring Program - I know this one from RCG. - against what goal are you measuring their success?

Define success.

One could say that in 40 years less than 150 pilots have completed the LSF achievement program. Is that success? I don't know. Depends on how you define success.

How many get past level 3? Maybe there is some success criteria for this?

Success of a program, like an LSF Achievement Program task, can only be measured against a goal. No goal, no way to judge success.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #202

  • Tim McCann
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eAnderson wrote:

tMcCann wrote: Why haven’t these programs been more successful?
League for Electric Soaring
www.les.windmillpro.com/index.htm
Sportsman’s Soaring Program
sportsmanssoaringprogram.com/


Never heard of LES - against what goal are you measuring their success?

Sportsman's Soaring Program - I know this one from RCG. - against what goal are you measuring their success?

Define success.

One could say that in 40 years less than 150 pilots have completed the LSF achievement program. Is that success? I don't know. Depends on how you define success.

How many get past level 3? Maybe there is some success criteria for this?

Success of a program, like an LSF Achievement Program task, can only be measured against a goal. No goal, no way to judge success.

OK, two successful well thought out challenging motorglider achievement programs, why do you need a third?
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #203

  • Preston Heller
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tMcCann wrote:

eAnderson wrote:

tMcCann wrote: Why haven’t these programs been more successful?
League for Electric Soaring
www.les.windmillpro.com/index.htm
Sportsman’s Soaring Program
sportsmanssoaringprogram.com/


Never heard of LES - against what goal are you measuring their success?

Sportsman's Soaring Program - I know this one from RCG. - against what goal are you measuring their success?

Define success.

One could say that in 40 years less than 150 pilots have completed the LSF achievement program. Is that success? I don't know. Depends on how you define success.

How many get past level 3? Maybe there is some success criteria for this?

Success of a program, like an LSF Achievement Program task, can only be measured against a goal. No goal, no way to judge success.

OK, two successful well thought out challenging motorglider achievement programs, why do you need a third?


SSP has no competition component.
LES has never been a success.
We're not here to debate about those programs.
Stop playing games. It's a waste of everyone's time. We all know you are dead set
against an ESAP as part of LSF, Mr. McCann.

Preston
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #204

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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As most of you probably know by now I am a fan of the eSAP being very different from the SAP. I think the eSAP shouldn’t have slope tasks primarily because I don’t really think there is much of a community of people flying electric sailplanes on slopes (I could be wrong on this and if I am then I’ll change that opinion completely). I think the community of people who used to fly string launch stuff and now mostly fly electric launch stuff the eSAP mirroring the SAP probably makes sense. But for the community of people who have just flown electric launch stuff having the eSAP look like our existing SAP probably doesn’t make a lot of sense to them and might be something they just completely pass over. Since we have a blank slate for the eSAP I think we could come up with stuff way outside the box. Do away with the paper forms. Make the whole program leverage social media and other electronic tools that are in existence or emerging.

tkadmin wrote: I know more than a few world-class pilots who refuse to run the LSF SAP simply BECAUSE they don't want to do the 8 hour.


Personally I find huge value in the 8 hour slope flight for the SAP (more on that in a bit), but I too have heard this a lot of times. Because of that since we can create something new and vibrant with the eSAP I would suggest we omit the 8 hour slope flight from the eSAP. Or at least give a person an option of doing a 4 hour thermal flight or 8 hour slope flight or something along those lines.

helletp wrote: Many of us do not live in a part of the country where we can find suitable slopes for achieving these longer tasks and quite frankly I have always considered the 8 hour task, well, kind of silly. What is learned by doing that for 8 hours? In fact, in all my conversations with other LSF members I have yet to find one who thinks of it as anything other than an endurance task



I love the 8 hour slope task. I would do it every weekend if I had the time. If the SAP gave the option to do the 8 hour slope flight 9 times to exchange for the 10K, 2 hour, 3 wins and 6 contests with points I would do so gladly. It clearly doesn’t and I’m not saying it should be changed but if it were in the program I would do that.

I learned a lot in my 8 hour flight. I learned a lot about picking ideal days to fly, a lot about networking with other flyers in different clubs, and I got to practice my soldering skills. I got to watch the sky change for a full day. The 8 hour flight was a lot of fun. I learned that I can focus for a very long time but at the 7 hour mark my focus started to waiver. I learned I can eat and drink and fly at the same time. I learned beef jerky is an ideal snack for eating while flying. I learned a lot about how giant thermals come through on fairly regular cycles and overpower the hill for a period of time. The timing of them was way more regular than I expected and it really reinforced that I could be doing more with timing thermal cycles when doing flat land flying.

I got to fly my Paragon for 8 hours. I love flying the Paragon so that worked out really well. I documented my experience in a fall 2011 RCSD if anyone cares to read about it in more details.

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #205

  • Preston Heller
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ryanw wrote: As most of you probably know by now I am a fan of the eSAP being very different from the SAP. I think the eSAP shouldn’t have slope tasks primarily because I don’t really think there is much of a community of people flying electric sailplanes on slopes (I could be wrong on this and if I am then I’ll change that opinion completely). I think the community of people who used to fly string launch stuff and now mostly fly electric launch stuff the eSAP mirroring the SAP probably makes sense. But for the community of people who have just flown electric launch stuff having the eSAP look like our existing SAP probably doesn’t make a lot of sense to them and might be something they just completely pass over. Since we have a blank slate for the eSAP I think we could come up with stuff way outside the box. Do away with the paper forms. Make the whole program leverage social media and other electronic tools that are in existence or emerging.

tkadmin wrote: I know more than a few world-class pilots who refuse to run the LSF SAP simply BECAUSE they don't want to do the 8 hour.


Personally I find huge value in the 8 hour slope flight for the SAP (more on that in a bit), but I too have heard this a lot of times. Because of that since we can create something new and vibrant with the eSAP I would suggest we omit the 8 hour slope flight from the eSAP. Or at least give a person an option of doing a 4 hour thermal flight or 8 hour slope flight or something along those lines.

helletp wrote: Many of us do not live in a part of the country where we can find suitable slopes for achieving these longer tasks and quite frankly I have always considered the 8 hour task, well, kind of silly. What is learned by doing that for 8 hours? In fact, in all my conversations with other LSF members I have yet to find one who thinks of it as anything other than an endurance task



I love the 8 hour slope task. I would do it every weekend if I had the time. If the SAP gave the option to do the 8 hour slope flight 9 times to exchange for the 10K, 2 hour, 3 wins and 6 contests with points I would do so gladly. It clearly doesn’t and I’m not saying it should be changed but if it were in the program I would do that.

I learned a lot in my 8 hour flight. I learned a lot about picking ideal days to fly, a lot about networking with other flyers in different clubs, and I got to practice my soldering skills. I got to watch the sky change for a full day. The 8 hour flight was a lot of fun. I learned that I can focus for a very long time but at the 7 hour mark my focus started to waiver. I learned I can eat and drink and fly at the same time. I learned beef jerky is an ideal snack for eating while flying. I learned a lot about how giant thermals come through on fairly regular cycles and overpower the hill for a period of time. The timing of them was way more regular than I expected and it really reinforced that I could be doing more with timing thermal cycles when doing flat land flying.

I got to fly my Paragon for 8 hours. I love flying the Paragon so that worked out really well. I documented my experience in a fall 2011 RCSD if anyone cares to read about it in more details.

Ryan


You are special, Ryan. I've always said that.

Preston
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #206

  • Ed Anderson
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ryanw wrote: As most of you probably know by now I am a fan of the eSAP being very different from the SAP. I think the eSAP shouldn’t have slope tasks primarily because I don’t really think there is much of a community of people flying electric sailplanes on slopes (I could be wrong on this and if I am then I’ll change that opinion completely). I think the community of people who used to fly string launch stuff and now mostly fly electric launch stuff the eSAP mirroring the SAP probably makes sense. But for the community of people who have just flown electric launch stuff having the eSAP look like our existing SAP probably doesn’t make a lot of sense to them and might be something they just completely pass over. Since we have a blank slate for the eSAP I think we could come up with stuff way outside the box. Do away with the paper forms. Make the whole program leverage social media and other electronic tools that are in existence or emerging.

snip...

Ryan


Ryan,

I am not arguing against a separate set of tasks for eSAP but I think the idea that slope pilots aren't flying egliders on the slope is wrong. Just do some searches on Youtube and you will find a LOT of egliders being flown on the slope.

I remember reading about slope sites that would not allow egldiers of any type. I presume such places still exist, but why?

For many new slope pilots electric sailplanes is all they have. In fact when I bring new club members to the slope to learn about slope soaring they almost always bring electric gliders. They may never use the motor but it is still mounted on the plane.

Besides being their only glider for the slope, the motor provides a safety net that can save them from the trees or, at my slopes, from falling into the ocean. So many will never bring anything to the slope but an eglider. Having had to pull some of my slope gliders out of trees or the water, I can certainly appreciate the ability to hit the motor to save the glider when the lift dies suddenly.

I have slope gliders, TD gliders that I fly in the slope but my Radian and Easy Glider Electric hit the slope as well.

One of our slope sites requires a hi-start in order to get over the trees to get to the slope. Since e-gliders became so practical I have not brought a hi-start to that particular slope for a long time. 10 second motor burst puts me in to the lift and doesn't come on again till the next launch. And since that site is flown only in the winter, when it is often below freezing, why use a hi-start?

The point?

Just like string launching, once you launch e-gliders at the slope they are just like pure gliders and there is no reason people would not fly them on the slope. Just look at all the slope soaring videos on youtube that are made with egliders.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #207

  • Tim McCann
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SSP has no competition component.
LES has never been a success.
We're not here to debate about those programs.
Stop playing games. It's a waste of everyone's time. We all know you are dead set
against an ESAP as part of LSF, Mr. McCann.

Preston

I am against as much as you are for.

Remember, motorgliders are the interlopers asking to be included, and not very politely. Will this be the face of the face of the new LSF? I doubt your brazen rudeness will garner many votes from the traditional membership.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #208

  • Curtis Suter
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Remember, motorgliders are the interlopers asking to be included, and not very politely.


Definition: The FAI Gliding Commission Sporting Code definition is: A fixed-wing aerodyne equipped with a means of propulsion (MoP), capable of sustained soaring flight without thrust from the means of propulsion

If the motor is unable to be restarted after it has been shut down then what's the difference? From a full scale or model pilot perspective I just can't see how there is a difference.
I'd really appreciate a full understanding from you on this tMcCann as I respect your journey and experience but for some reason I can't see through the trees what point you're trying to make? Just trying to learn.

Curtis
Montana
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