TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

eAnderson wrote: I don't know if there is any form of national association for slope soaring as I don't fly slope contests.

The phrase "national association for slope soaring" I'm not sure what you are asking about but you mentioned DLG/F3K in the paragraph above with the same phrase so I think you are talking about F3F. F3F is a speed event where the objective is to make 5 laps (10 legs) on a 100 meter course. There is a World Championship for F3F (it is a fairly recent addition to the World Championship classification), a World Cup, and the US has sent a team to the F3F Worlds and other F3F events (including the 2013 Euro Champs).

I haven't ever personally seen or flown F3F but some day hope to at least observe it being flown.

Ryan

helletp wrote:
"The skill level is some what higher"

Misread that part. Then I guess shame shame shame, Mr. Jolly, for dogging one awesome event over another awesome event. Both events are clearly awesome and have high skill level pilots.

Back to the topic of the eSAP, any other thoughts on a closed course alternative/option for the XC tasks? People could still choose to do a the regular goal and return if they chose too but in 30 or 40 years places where it is legal to do things like 10K goal and return could become very limited if land development continues on the course it has been on for the past several centuries.

Ryan

Gentlemen I am not Sniping , only trying to add a contrary opinion to those expressed by Mr Anderson, who I will forgive for making unfounded statements regarding the status of winch launched soaring vs other types.. Obviously he is a newcomer, lacking experience, and as a result prone to drawing wrong conclusions. Many of us started in this process looking for an exchange of ideas. As is often the case in our national political debates, one side has chosen to go for personal attacks instead of a fair debate of ideas. I became skeptical of the oppositions real motives when they chose to openly attack Level 5's who have their own perspective on where the LSF should proceed..
The LSF could do many things to help promote the LSF and help increase interest. I have had personal conversations with Jim Deck regarding easy solutions to help grow numbers. But it seems that this discussion has degraded to the point that there really is little left to discuss... I was interested in how many of you came forward to dedicate your efforts to an ESAP when Gordy questioned the amount of real interest.
But I do have a question, since all of you are current LSFers, What is different about launching with a powered sailplane over a conventional glider that you will now aspire to commit to finish an ESAP, but you came up short with the SAP ???
I am lucky I live in California and I have my choice of well attended TD contests to attend..Ironically I have to drive 7 hours one way to attend a 2day ALES meet.. Maybe on the east coast clubs quit flying TD events.. I am not sure that is the case as I see several listed on several club sites..Just pondering LJ

LarryJolly wrote: y Mr Anderson, who I will forgive for making unfounded statements regarding the status of winch launched soaring vs other types.. Obviously he is a newcomer, lacking experience, and as a result prone to drawing wrong conclusions.

To be completely fair, I don't think Ed is a newcomer given he has been flying for about a decade, has been a very active member of a club that holds two 20+ pilot TD contests each season, has competed in a number of ESL contests, a Nats, and has served as president of the ESL.

Obviously he has been doing this less long than guys like you and even me. But newcomer isn't really accurate either.

Ryan

LarryJolly wrote: But I do have a question, since all of you are current LSFers, What is different about launching with a powered sailplane over a conventional glider that you will now aspire to commit to finish an ESAP, but you came up short with the SAP ???

A number of folks have already posted answers to that question. Some have said they switched to electric sailplanes for health reasons, some for field reasons, some because they like electric sailplanes, some because their friends all have gravitated to electric sailplanes.

Personally I am working on L5 and that along with winning an FAI medal are my top 2 goals in aeromodelling. I have always felt that if the LSF is the AMA SIG for electric soaring, and the LSF has agreed to at least some degree, maybe reluctantly, to serve in that capacity, that there should be a way for folks who only fly electric launch sailplanes to become members of the LSF. If the LSF creates an eSAP I will participate in it although my primary focus will be the 2 items I listed earlier. I am big on trying to support soaring of all types any way I can. I also did the Copper level of the SSP (and will work on the bronze level too).

Ryan Woebkenberg - LSF 7233 - L4

For those of you looking for proof of trends in soaring, some simple math will help. If you go to RCGroups and search both the F3X forum and the Electric sailplane forum (the two "sides" in this debate) you will find the following. By arranging by views for the top 10 threads you come up with the following: F3X - just over 650,000. The same list for Electric soaring yields 3.5 million views. Five times as many. Not all different users in either case, but certainly an indication of interest levels.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Preston

LarryJolly wrote: Gentlemen I am not Sniping , only trying to add a contrary opinion to those expressed by Mr Anderson, who I will forgive for making unfounded statements regarding the status of winch launched soaring vs other types.. Obviously he is a newcomer, lacking experience, and as a result prone to drawing wrong conclusions. Many of us started in this process looking for an exchange of ideas. As is often the case in our national political debates, one side has chosen to go for personal attacks instead of a fair debate of ideas. I became skeptical of the oppositions real motives when they chose to openly attack Level 5's who have their own perspective on where the LSF should proceed..
The LSF could do many things to help promote the LSF and help increase interest. I have had personal conversations with Jim Deck regarding easy solutions to help grow numbers. But it seems that this discussion has degraded to the point that there really is little left to discuss... I was interested in how many of you came forward to dedicate your efforts to an ESAP when Gordy questioned the amount of real interest.
But I do have a question, since all of you are current LSFers, What is different about launching with a powered sailplane over a conventional glider that you will now aspire to commit to finish an ESAP, but you came up short with the SAP ???
I am lucky I live in California and I have my choice of well attended TD contests to attend..Ironically I have to drive 7 hours one way to attend a 2day ALES meet.. Maybe on the east coast clubs quit flying TD events.. I am not sure that is the case as I see several listed on several club sites..Just pondering LJ

Larry, I provided my credentials earlier. I attend roughly 20-25 winch launched contests a year, between club and Eastern Soaring League contests, with 1 NATs under my belt. I am a club soaring contest CD and an AMA contest CD. I feel I have some understanding of the string launched flying world. But I certainly do not have your credentials nor do I pretend to have your credentials.

Wherever possible I try to reference facts. But I do express opinions too which hopefully are based on the facts as I know them.

I will comment about your question because it goes to the heart of my motivation for this discussion.

My comments are not about ME, my personal needs or my personal goals or my achieving any particular level of SAP. My comments, and those of some of the other posters are about recognition by LSF that there is a larger soaring community out there and that that community should be welcomed into the AMA SIG for soaring.

LSF is already serving the e-soaring community even as it rejects them from membership. How does that make any sense?

When I turned in my Level 1 sheet, no one told me that if I was not going to commit to complete level V that I was not welcome. And since very very very few ever get that far we must assume that those who are not committed to finishing SAP are still welcome into the organization, as long as they fly the right kind of glider. I feel that it is time for that to change and for LSF to open the doors.

I may never start the eSAP and I no longer have any ambitions of completing SAP. I don't seek or need the recognition of level labels. I will likely be a level II the rest of my soaring life, like many if not most LSF members. I have access to contests, I have access to a slope and I could at least complete the 1K goal and return if I wished. And some day I may, or I may not. But that changes nothing about my comments or my opinions expressed in this discussion.

This is not about me, what I want personally or whether or not I ever plan to start or finish the eSAP. It is about the soaring community. And since the only way the soaring community can join the AMA SIG for soaring is to complete level one of some kind of SAP, we need an eSAP.

If LSF, the AMA SIG for soaring, welcomed members without the need to enter an SAP program, then I could drop out of this discussion without concern for whether there was an eSAP or not.

If there was ever any confusion about my interests and motivations, I think that should put them to rest.

Larry Jolly asks:"But I do have a question, since all of you are current LSFers, What is different about launching with a powered sailplane over a conventional glider that you will now aspire to commit to finish an ESAP, but you came up short with the SAP ???"
Larry, throughout the entire country, sites capable of supporting winch or histart launches are disappearing. Anyone that has access to such a site should count their blessings. Those who are pursuing the SAP and have lost a site now find a huge obstacle in their path. An ESAP provides those individuals, who have already demonstrated a passion for R/C soaring, an alternative pathway to hone their soaring skills. And, as some have pointed out, alternative does not equal easier. And while on the topic of easier, from where I sit, bringing the current ESAP proposal to fruition is certainly not an "easy solution".

LarryJolly wrote: But I do have a question, since all of you are current LSFers, What is different about launching with a powered sailplane over a conventional glider that you will now aspire to commit to finish an ESAP, but you came up short with the SAP ???
I am lucky I live in California and I have my choice of well attended TD contests to attend..Ironically I have to drive 7 hours one way to attend a 2day ALES meet.. Maybe on the east coast clubs quit flying TD events.. I am not sure that is the case as I see several listed on several club sites..Just pondering LJ

Well I have not come up short with the SAP I am still working on it and flying electric is just one more chance I get to fly when I travel because for me it is 13 hours one way from Utah to get to the Fall Fest in Visalia and every trip I work towards the completion of level V. I started working on My level V with the 8 hour slope and that was a cake walk for me but the wins are the hardest part but one day I will get them.
Clarence Ashcraft

eAnderson wrote:

Clarence Ashcraft wrote:

eAnderson wrote: What about the restart question?


* For Levels 1, 2 and 3 - the pilot can have the restart set to on. If he restarts he fails the task. Period.

* For levels 4 and 5 tasks, restart must be disabled.

* for all contests, the restart option will be according to the rules of the contest placing the LSF pilot on an equal footing with all the other pilots in the contest. It makes no sense to place an LSF 4 or 5 aspirant at a disadvantage in a contest just because he is working on eSAP 3, 4 and 5.

For level 4 and 5 tasks, once you are working on level 4 and 5 tasks you have demonstrated your skills and should be ready and confident to go out without a safety net, just like the pure glider guys.

So, that is my proposal in summary.

All this is good but I am not looking at buying another style of Cam unit as I have three of them right now, restarting is not an issue for Me because for as many years that I have been flying I know how far My limits are to get back without killing My plane.

Clarence Ashcraft
LSF # 7390 IV

I understand, but I want you to take this beyond your personal position and look at it in the larger context.

Just catching up on a past post
This is one good reason to have the restart feature is "Safety"
With the smaller fields, more buildings and roads and cars everywhere this raises the amount of hazards to the flight path.

With this day and age of runaway lawsuits and courts We cannot afford to have a person or object hit by a plane that didn't make it safely to the field due to a no restart feature.
Not everyone out there has a perfect flying field with open space around them so a opportunity to get the plane back without causing harm to people or property should be the main reason the restart feature is needed.

I do understand why some want a no restart feature but the LSF was based on Honor and Integrity, and if a aspirant has neither one them and feels they need to lie to accomplish the goals then there is no hope for that person.

Clarence Ashcraft