TOPIC: Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #851

  • James Deck
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It looks like ALES equipped sailplanes are showing up on winch-launched flight lines and will be there from now on. It raises an interesting issue regarding contest points for both of the accomplishment program. Larry Jolly has provided the following question "Does a 20 man MIxed launch contest consisting of 16 Winch launched competitors and 4 ALES launched competitors qualify for a Level 5 contest for both SAP and ESAP" Some potential answers:
  • No, both sets of pilots are out of luck for a Level V contest and the ESAP pilots are really out of luck.
  • Yes, both the ESAP pilots and the SAP pilots may count the contest if it's scored as just a 21 pilot contest w/o regard to launch mode.
Two similar and somewhat broader questions could also be asked:
  • Should an ESAP pilot participating in a winch-launched or DLG contest and be allowed count that?
  • Should an SAP pilot participating in an ALES contest and be allowed to count that?
Some would say no as it's mixing the two accomplishment programs while others would say yes as it increases the number of contests availables to both programs.

When posting, please don't post a simple YES or NO give your reasons and lets a have a useful discussion. Thanks in advance for your participation.

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #852

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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My opinion is that electric contests/models can't be included in the SAP without a vote amending the SAP under bylaws Article 12 section 2. My read is that Larry's example is a 16 pilot SAP contest. For the purpose of the SAP it should be as if the 4 electric pilots at that event were flying RC Pylon.

I have read the current bylaws and am not clear on how Article 12 does or doesn't govern the eSAP. Article 12 Section 2 specifically references SAP. My best guess is that the eSAP could be modified by a simple vote of the membership. If the membership wanted to vote on Larry's example being a eSAP 20 pilot contest then I think that should be proposed and voted on.


Ryan Woebkenberg LSF 7233 SAP Level 4 eSAP level 1

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #854

  • Rob Glover
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Ryan is correct.
Pilots flying different classes (in this case electric launched sailplane) may not be combined in contest results.
It's fine if you all fly in the same air with another class, but you can't fly on the same scorecard.
Rob Glover, LSF Secretary

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #855

  • James Deck
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Ryan and Rob have currently described the status quo. If mixed-launched contests increase in popularity should the rules be re-examined?

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #856

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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jdadmin wrote: If mixed-launched contests increase in popularity should the rules be re-examined?


If by re-examine you mean conduct a vote of the eligible membership and the required super-majority vote in article 12 section 2 then I think that would be a good idea. I have offered this up before and will offer it again that I would volunteer to help with the effort of contacting LIV and LV members for the super-majority portion of amending the SAP.

Ryan

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #857

  • Wayne Norrie
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Assuming this idea moved forward wouldn't two votes be required? One set to change the original SAP and a second set of votes to change the eSAP. Assuming this is true I would propose that voting to change the eSAP would be much easier and due to the simple fact that the all of the eSAP L4's can be contacted easily as most only recently obtained their level. I do not believe there are any LV eSAP members yet.

Starting here might help flesh out any issues that could then be more easily addressed when looking into changing the SAP.

Just a thought, I can never seem to locate the SAP and eSAP rules so it is possible that string launched sailplanes can already participate in an eSAP LSF event.

Wayne

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #858

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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waynen wrote: Assuming this idea moved forward wouldn't two votes be required? One set to change the original SAP and a second set of votes to change the eSAP.


I have read the bylaws and am not 100% sure if a super-majority vote is required to change the eSAP or not. After reading and thinking about it I don't think the super majority requirement applies to the eSAP since the super majority specifically references the SAP and changing that section of the bylaws to make it reference the SAP and eSAP would have required a super majority vote which wasn't done. So if that is the case then a vote could be conducted of the membership that is eligible to vote that had 2 questions. Question 1 being do you want to change the eSAP to allow electric and non electric mixed contests for the contest requirements. And the 2nd question would be do you want to change the SAP to allow electric and non electric mixed contests for the contest requirements. Assuming the first vote receives at least 50% in favor the the eSAP is rightfully modified. If the 2nd question receives 50% in favor votes then the supermajority voting could be conducted (with those level 4 and 5 members who voted already not needing to be contacted again).

Ryan

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #859

  • Rob Glover
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Interesting discussions.

The board discussed these issues at length over several years. The conclusion that I came to was:
The SAP probably won't be changed. The bar to do so is set very high and the members don't want to change it. Neither do I.


The ESAP is a provisional program. We set it up and fielded it due to repeated requests of the E flight community. It is currently undergoing a trial period. The LSF changed no rules or by-laws to set it up. According to the by-laws the ESAP does not exist. At the end of the current term I will make a recommendation to my successor about the ESAP, they will act as they see fit.

My recommendation will be that if the ESAP, as is, fills a need within the community then let it roll. If, however, the LSF needs to change it's current program or standards to suit the E flight community then I would recommend that the LSF step away from the program. It would be better run by folks who have that vision.

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #861

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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rglover wrote: The LSF changed no rules or by-laws to set it up. According to the by-laws the ESAP does not exist.


That isn't entirely true. Although the details of the eSAP don't actually appear to be in the bylaws the bylaws were modified to reference the eSAP. Article 6 section 1 governs how one can become a member of the LSF. Before last year the only way to become a member of the LSF was to complete L1 of the SAP. Currently a person can become a member of the LSF by completing L1 of the SAP or eSAP. So the eSAP definitely does exist according to the bylaws since it is referenced as an avenue to become a member.


Ryan

Mixed contests and the LSF SAP & ESAP 2 years 6 months ago #862

  • Rob Glover
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Yep, you are right. I'm voting for you to be the next secretary. When can you start?
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