TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #643

  • Ed Anderson
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Preston Heller wrote: I could be wrong, but hasn't this topic been covered?


Ad nauseam
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #644

  • Preston Heller
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Yep. I'm pretty darn sure that folks have done made up their minds by now and don't need any more gesticulating, pontificating, harangifying, reiterating, pointing out or any more beating of dead horses. This is just my humble opinion. I could be wrong.
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #645

  • Don Harban
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"Don, I am surprised you are pushing this point but since you want to talk launches, let's talk launches. 40 meters beyond 200 is a 20% overage. OK. This seems to be a big issue for you as it seems you have set up your gliders to exceed the target launch height and you want to bring this up as a concern."

It would be nice if you would read what I wrote. I DO NOT SET UP MY GLIDERS TO EXCEED THE TARGET LAUNCH HEIGHT. Your inference to that effect is wrong.

As I said, I log my launch heights and adjust the motor cut-off altitude DOWNWARD to compensate for any overage which may result from the particular setup I am using. In time, I expect that there will be enforcement that will result in other competitors also doing what is necessary to ensure their own compliance.

My light setups get the plane up in 25 or so seconds, but do not have enough power to make much progress into a strong breeze. This setup results in about a 16 meter over-run. (about 350 net watts to the plane in the air -- hardly a powerhouse)

My heavy setup gets the plane up in 20 to 22 seconds and will allow a fully ballasted plane to get up and about 300 meters into an 18 to 20 mph wind. (about 500 net watts to the plane in the air -- again hardly a powerhouse)

Neither of these planes "is set up to exceed the target launch". Period. The target launch can be exceeded by these planes (and I suspect by most similar planes) if pilots do not compensate for the overshoot that is inherent in the power systems that most people use. In the UK version of ALES they have had to address this issue as the event has matured there by requiring devices which can compensate for launch speed and verify launch altitudes. As you suggested, this IS a big issue for me because a failure to address it will quickly result in an arms race that no one wants. I suggest you read Joe Wurts observations on the issue at last year's SWC where he observed some monster zooms.

As a point of fact, I have a pretty good first hand understanding of how variances in launch altitude work in TD. I responded to this issue only to furnish some factual information supporting the notion that the variances that we can reasonably expect for ALES fall outside some of the ranges that were being discussed here. And more importantly, that it would not be difficult -- lacking effective enforcement -- for ALES launches to easily fall outside most of the ranges which have been suggested for TD on this thread -- something that will lead to a rapid deterioration of the characteristic we like about ALES and the onset of a costly and unpleasant power race.

Happy Landings,

Don
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #646

  • Ed Anderson
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Don,

My sincere apology if I implied that you were trying to do anything improper. I understand that planes have the ability to zoom through 200 M, whether intentional or not.

My point was that, as worded in the ESAP proposal, I see the 200M spec as a cut-off height, not an absolute launch height limit. And perhaps that is where we differ here. Perhaps I am wrong.

I see this in the same way I see that AMA rules define the maximum length of a winch line but does not define the launch height.

But even if e-glides have the ability to zoom well past 200 meters, I don't think it is particularly important to this discussion or the ESAP. That is for CDs and AMA rules to address at individual contests, not LSF.

Again I apologize for my poor wording.
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #647

  • Don Harban
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My last time on this subject.

My planes are set up so they CANNOT zoom past the allowed altitude. Period. And I have the capability to verify that on every flight.

And in time, if that does not become our reasonable expectation of all competitors and LSF participants, the thing that has propelled ALES past the old LMR -- modestly powered easy to handle planes -- will go away.

Happy Landings,

Don
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #648

  • Preston Heller
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Of course the way to have killed most of the debate in this thread would have been the adoption of three simple things.

Using a device that limits your altitude to the stated amount with a penalty for going over. This is mostly for competition purposes, but right now it's true, some guys blast through the stated contest altitude. For tasks it's just not much of an issue.

Use a limiting device that prevents restarts once you have reached your altitude, until you are back on the ground. Period. Any real debate would be over. No difference whatsoever between winch in nose planes and winch on ground planes. That was suggested early on, but rejected.

Adopt the color system for program designation and amend the by-laws.

It really wasn't much more complicated than that.

Preston
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #649

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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I have no way to prove this, but I am pretty sure this thread has set a record for most number of times people have said the last thing they have to say.

:)

;)

Happy New Year everyone! Hope you all got some flying in.

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #650

  • Gordon Stahl
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Preston
said, "but right now it's true, some guys blast through the stated contest altitude. For tasks it's just not much of an issue."
[/i]

Preston, its not an issure at all...and Don likely has as much actually contest data on the topic as anyone....guys are NOT blasting thru the altitude limit.

That whole idea was an urban legend before the game even started...but even it were true. Not one of those guys have ever even placed in an ALES contest...never.

Why? You'd know if you really think back to the contests you have been involved in flying. At the end of an ALES event, the computer adds up flight times and landing points. The top 3 to 5 pilot scores get recognized with adulation and recognition plaques. The plaques aren't trophies, they are reminders for the pilots who's scores earned them rankings.

No one wins anything by zooming through the altitude limit at an ALES event.

Okay real world situation. You get to launch to 200m and I get to launch to 100m. At the end of 5 rounds are you sure who'll end up with the bigger score?

F3J 4 meter ships are now launching to a whopping 200 feet, not 200 meters, yet fly 10 and 15min flights.

So lets not bother playing the zoom card in these discussions. If someone wants to zoom, let them. It doesn't affect what we have to do each round. And if you don't want to drop the zoom card, then NAME those mysterious cheating b...tards! NAME them. Because I know most guys in the hobby and I can't think of any one.

The LSF Task Program was created to trick pilots into becoming better contest pilots. A step by step training program, each step designed to prepare a rc soaring pilots experience and confidence to be able to stay up longer and improve his control of the nose of his aircraft. The first level guides pilots away from hitting trees, each other and the winch.
It was cloaked as an "achievement" program in order to hook egos. Anything tried and completed is an achievement.
Yesterday a simple task was assigned to all the rc soaring pilots in the world...you didn't even have to have a witness, but it would have counted for an LSF task had you had a witness.

I'm an LSF5 but I only got a 4 miute 47 second flight. Three other of our club pilots also flew it. One with an Electric Launch sailplane, he got over 5 minutes but we are in process of downloading his launch record to see if he exceed the 200m limit :-).

Early on in my contest career I decided to worry about my flights, not someone else's. I had to do what the CD asked, if at the end my scores didn't end up top, then I knew "I" had more work to do.

This is a hobby, not a sport. LSF is about participation, not achievement.
Gordy
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #651

  • Wayne Norrie
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gordysoar wrote: Okay real world situation. You get to launch to 200m and I get to launch to 100m. At the end of 5 rounds are you sure who'll end up with the bigger score?...

Yesterday a simple task was assigned to all the rc soaring pilots in the world...you didn't even have to have a witness, but it would have counted for an LSF task had you had a witness.

I'm an LSF5 but I only got a 4 miute 47 second flight. Three other of our club pilots also flew it. One with an Electric Launch sailplane, he got over 5 minutes but we are in process of downloading his launch record to see if he exceed the 200m limit :-).

Gordy


Gordy, Just looking at a couple of your comments here. There is no reason your "real world situation" would need to have you string launching to 100 meters and the e-launch pilot launching to 200 meters. Same is true with the club event you mentioned. The overwhelming majority of the height limiters used in ALES are adjustable at the field. Simply ask the e-launch pilot to reprogram the height limiter to something closer to your string launch heights. I can reprogram my Soaring Circuits CAM unit is less than 1 minute. The e-launch pilot should know how to to do this and if they don't, then they need to learn how to do it.

Wayne
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #652

  • Preston Heller
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gordysoar wrote: Preston

said, "but right now it's true, some guys blast through the stated contest altitude. For tasks it's just not much of an issue."
[/i]

Preston, its not an issure at all...and Don likely has as much actually contest data on the topic as anyone....guys are NOT blasting thru the altitude limit.

That whole idea was an urban legend before the game even started...but even it were true. Not one of those guys have ever even placed in an ALES contest...never.

Why? You'd know if you really think back to the contests you have been involved in flying. At the end of an ALES event, the computer adds up flight times and landing points. The top 3 to 5 pilot scores get recognized with adulation and recognition plaques. The plaques aren't trophies, they are reminders for the pilots who's scores earned them rankings.

No one wins anything by zooming through the altitude limit at an ALES event.

Okay real world situation. You get to launch to 200m and I get to launch to 100m. At the end of 5 rounds are you sure who'll end up with the bigger score?

F3J 4 meter ships are now launching to a whopping 200 feet, not 200 meters, yet fly 10 and 15min flights.

So lets not bother playing the zoom card in these discussions. If someone wants to zoom, let them. It doesn't affect what we have to do each round. And if you don't want to drop the zoom card, then NAME those mysterious cheating b...tards! NAME them. Because I know most guys in the hobby and I can't think of any one.

The LSF Task Program was created to trick pilots into becoming better contest pilots. A step by step training program, each step designed to prepare a rc soaring pilots experience and confidence to be able to stay up longer and improve his control of the nose of his aircraft. The first level guides pilots away from hitting trees, each other and the winch.
It was cloaked as an "achievement" program in order to hook egos. Anything tried and completed is an achievement.
Yesterday a simple task was assigned to all the rc soaring pilots in the world...you didn't even have to have a witness, but it would have counted for an LSF task had you had a witness.

I'm an LSF5 but I only got a 4 miute 47 second flight. Three other of our club pilots also flew it. One with an Electric Launch sailplane, he got over 5 minutes but we are in process of downloading his launch record to see if he exceed the 200m limit :-).

Early on in my contest career I decided to worry about my flights, not someone else's. I had to do what the CD asked, if at the end my scores didn't end up top, then I knew "I" had more work to do.

This is a hobby, not a sport. LSF is about participation, not achievement.
Gordy


Gordo,

I'm sorry you could not see my use of hyperbole in the mildly sarcastic manner in which it was presented, it might have saved you from your entire little rant, none of which had anything to do with what I said. In the future please do not twist my words to suit your needs and at least try sticking to the facts.

Yes, I know you are a Level V. You seem to mention it...hmmm...like every other post you make. But there still may be a few out there who do not know this yet, so carry on. It is a great achievement. Oops...I forgot. It's not an achievement. Well, whatever it is, it's damn hard to get. With that I agree, and no, I will never be a V -- but I do enjoy my e-soaring. TTFN.

Preston
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