TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

lincoln wrote: My mind is kind of in a blur, but if I'm not mistaken, I've read all the posts in this thread by now.

There's a point in here which I am a bit unclear on, though previously I just assumed that the answer was no. Probably because the phrase "separate but equal" makes me see red! Please forgive me if this was clearly stated and I missed it. It's clear that for the eSAP, you do your tasks with an electric, and for the regular SAP, you mustn't. But how about contests? I haven't seen a clear answer on that. Can someone in the eSAP use points from a TD contest? Vice versa? Since everyone in the contest has the same advantages and disadvantages, you can't truly say one or the other is easier to win*. As a level IV, I'm concerned that TD may keep shrinking until I can't get to very many 20 person contests. This already seems to be happening with DLG, which I really enjoy. I'll admit that, with my skills as they are, I may have to go to a lot of contests to get my three wins. If ALES wins can count, I can get to more contests. Also, this will motivate me to attend and support more ALES contests.

Personally, I think ALES or something like it is the future of RC soaring, even if all those gliders do have ugly spinning things.

Lincoln Ross
LSF 6011
Level IV

P.S. I think it might be too soon to enshrine 30 seconds and 200 meters. We might see an unanticipated development. Chances are, we will. Seems like neither ALES or hlg's popularity were anticipated.


*Last weekend, at the Pumpkin Fly, I was third in TD and something like third from last in ALES!

They would be separate programs, Lincoln. You would not be able to use ALES wins for the regular SAP levels and vice versa. You would be starting from scratch if you choose to do the eSAP and that seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Preston

Thanks. I guess that's necessary in order to get more people on board with the proposal. However, I am almost certain it will reduce participation, at least a little. It will certainly reduce my personal motivation to go to ALES contests until I get my level V, unless I'm willing to give up on all the work I've already done on the TD side and do it over again on the other side. It seems likely to reduce the motivation for ALES competitors to try TD contests also.

Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who derides those motors and props as "ugly spinning things". But I can read the writing on the wall.

Lincoln

lincoln wrote: Thanks. I guess that's necessary in order to get more people on board with the proposal. However, I am almost certain it will reduce participation, at least a little. It will certainly reduce my personal motivation to go to ALES contests until I get my level V, unless I'm willing to give up on all the work I've already done on the TD side and do it over again on the other side. It seems likely to reduce the motivation for ALES competitors to try TD contests also.

Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who derides those motors and props as "ugly spinning things". But I can read the writing on the wall.

Lincoln

Not sure why you're so worried about it. Just go for the V as the opportunities present themselves and blitz through the eSAP if you like. You don't have to choose one over the other. You can do both.

Preston

Ok, if increasing participation at contests is not that important to you, compared to other factors, you can disregard my note. For myself, I would like TD to die less slowly.

As TD and DLG become less popular, current level 3's and 4's who don't want to throw out all the work they've done will be left high and dry. That's good for neither us nor the LSF.

I think it's probably time for me to back off from this discussion a bit. Those who don't want to get my point won't, but it's been publicly aired. It's clear that it's very much a miinority opinion. So I'm going to try not to check up on it very often.

lincoln wrote: Ok, if increasing participation at contests is not that important to you, compared to other factors, you can disregard my note. For myself, I would like TD to die less slowly.

As TD and DLG become less popular, current level 3's and 4's who don't want to throw out all the work they've done will be left high and dry. That's good for neither us nor the LSF.

I think it's probably time for me to back off from this discussion a bit. Those who don't want to get my point won't, but it's been publicly aired. It's clear that it's very much a miinority opinion. So I'm going to try not to check up on it very often.

Lincoln,

I don't see any reason to believe that TD is going to die off quickly and it may continue strong for decades to come. ESL TD is coming back from a sag and the monthly TD contest in my club is the strongest of all of them. Between TD and DLG I think there will be plenty of contests around for the Lev IV and V pilots for quite a while.

The original SAP was a method by which pilots could measure their abilities against a standard, improving regular piloting skills thus the landing requirements in the first two levels, addition of competition and cross country tasks in the higher levels. The eSAP should follow suit with these same goals.

The attachment is my vision of an eSAP that mirrors those same ideas and ideals.



Some basic bullets include:

• As one progresses through the eSAP levels, the altitude limit is reduced from 200 meters for L1 to 100 meters for LV
• The altitude limit for each level applies to the tasks only, not the competition requirements and is the device setting, zooming is not addressed. A pilot may elect to shut down below the limit.
• I think a 100 meter altitude limit for the spot landing requirements would be fair, it’s a bit higher than the 75’ SAP requirement, but all ALES devices allow for 100 meter settings.
• The basic duration task for levels 1-3 are increased from 5, 15 and 30 minutes to 15, 30 and 45 minutes respectively.
• Any ALES/F5J/LMR contest should qualify for competition points. This hopefully would have the effect of increasing the number of electric launch contests appearing over time.
• Motor restart in any task results in a failed attempt but saves the aircraft for another attempt.
• Witness requirements should remain the same as the classic program and should detail that the altitude limit must be verified by the witness in addition to the task being attempted.
• I would not argue against requiring two duration tasks per level (in the same manner as a second thermal flight is allowed to replace the slope requirement) since I am dropping the slope requirement at all levels, with the caveat that the repeat may not occur on the same day as the first successful task completion (as in the classic program). Another possibility would be to add the second duration task but reduce the altitude limit in levels 1-3 to 100 meters.

Why the removal of slope tasks? Seems this is about soaring and how the E planes are no different once the motor is off but then we'll take a task away? I don't mind the substitution in the earlier tasks but Level V should have the eight hour slope requirement. I think there would be a whole lot more level V's if the eight hour slope requirement was removed from the original SAP.

Curtis

Curtis Suter wrote: Why the removal of slope tasks? Seems this is about soaring and how the E planes are no different once the motor is off but then we'll take a task away? I don't mind the substitution in the earlier tasks but Level V should have the eight hour slope requirement. I think there would be a whole lot more level V's if the eight hour slope requirement was removed from the original SAP.

Curtis

I think the above proposal is quite good. I have always opted to drop the slope and substitute another TD task. Many of us do not live in a part of the country where we can find suitable slopes for achieving these longer tasks and quite frankly I have always considered the 8 hour task, well, kind of silly. What is learned by doing that for 8 hours? In fact, in all my conversations with other LSF members I have yet to find one who thinks of it as anything other than an endurance task. And with the much higher price of traveling these days (and weaker bladders) it's a road block for many, and I'm okay with that. I would, however, support it's inclusion if you could substitute a 3 hour thermal task, which is no small feat either.

Preston

helletp wrote: ...
I think the above proposal is quite good. I have always opted to drop the slope and substitute another TD task. Many of us do not live in a part of the country where we can find suitable slopes for achieving these longer tasks and quite frankly I have always considered the 8 hour task, well, kind of silly. What is learned by doing that for 8 hours? In fact, in all my conversations with other LSF members I have yet to find one who thinks of it as anything other than an endurance task. And with the much higher price of traveling these days (and weaker bladders) it's a road block for many, and I'm okay with that. I would, however, support it's inclusion if you could substitute a 3 hour thermal task, which is no small feat either.

Preston

sorry preston, but I strongly disagree with you on the "drop slope" point. Level V was intended to be the "impossible" level. If you have completed level 4 you have proven that you are a very experienced soaring pilot and you already have all the skills needed. level V is the big challenge that requires you to show skills in organizing events and mentoring other pilots (btw, took me a while to figure that out). it is not about you (the pilot) but to motivate and bring other pilots up to at least level 3! of course it is silly to fly for 8h or run down 20k in a pickup truck just to "walk" your plane through the sky, but it is also a very gratifying experience that you can not accomplish just by yourself. it took me 12 years to finish level V but I enjoyed every minute of trying (and failing)!
I would love to do it all over with an electric!
ingo
LSF V 7369

ps: fly with a tray, and it's much easier when you have a problem with the bladder, I know what I'm talking about #8-)

I would not drop the slope either. The slope soaring where I live is somewhat limited but it is a valid soaring task. For some, slope is the primary form of flying with thermal the exception. While I think the 8 hour slope task is excessive it is a valid task so why change it just because the aircraft has a motor? If there is lift you will fly and if the wind dies or changes direction you will not fly. The only impact the motor has is whether your glider will end up in the trees, the ocean or some other bad place, which has nothing to do with the task.

Again, I don't see why ANY of the tasks should be different. None of them measure anything about the launch method so why would any of the soaring tasks change? None of them require dork landings. They measure soaring and landing achievement in relation to other pilots in the same contests under the same rules so that automatically takes into account any variations around launch height, landing tasks, etc. when it comes to contests.

I say keep the tasks the same between the two programs. No changes.