TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 3 years 11 months ago #703

  • Brent Robinson
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Ryan,
I live in "this" so called area and I have never heard anything like this statement.

"I think they are on the decline because of prevalent attitudes of "X is killing the hobby. Y is the only true path" in many of the clubs in your area."

The truth of the matter is that every club I know of in this area is hosting ALES competitions monthly either at the club level or AMA sanctioned competitions. My club even has rules to allow ALES and winch launch to compete together.

Like it or not, most everybody sees ALES as the way of the future. I have not chimed in until now, but just sat back and read/listened. Everybody wants to support an ESAP and I believe that everybody would support this ESAP IF the board would stop overlooking/ignoring one ongoing suggestion from the beginning. The ESAP needs to be separate from the original SAP.

I cannot fathom how this has been the core of the issue from day one and nothing has been done to address this.

Brent
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #704

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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Brentrob wrote: I live in "this" so called area and I have never heard anything like this statement.


Hey Brent,

Not sure if we have met but I definitely look forward to meeting you some day. If you are seeing different things than I am I think that is awesome!

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #705

  • Curtis Suter
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Voting Complete!
Well that is a weight off of my mind!
Now I can enjoy my winter building new models for the upcoming Soaring season. Yes I Soar with my electric assisted gliders. For those who think otherwise we have a nice two day ALES event the middle of August and I can prove to you that we do just that.

I would like to thank everyone for their comments on this subject and to the LSF Board for volunteering their time.

All the Best from Montana.
Curtis Suter
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #706

  • David Beach
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It's been a couple of days now, and still no sign of a ballot in my inbox or junk mail...

ESL Board
  • Please send me a ballot! (I get plenty of mail from this forum)
  • Will we get statistics on ballots sent, bounced, and successfully voted?

David
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #707

  • Tim McCann
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dbeach wrote: It's been a couple of days now, and still no sign of a ballot in my inbox or junk mail...

ESL Board

  • Please send me a ballot! (I get plenty of mail from this forum)
  • Will we get statistics on ballots sent, bounced, and successfully voted?

David

Dave
You’re a V now and we’re not welcome here, welcome to Bizarro World. Hopefully you’ve received your “E” ballot by now.

In solidarity with the disenfranchised non-internet members I plan to submit my “symbolic” vote in printed form by mail. Symbolic because this proposal and the voting procedure are non-compliant with the bylaws and therefore meaningless.

Hopefully Ed or Rob will step up and join Gil and kill this thing so we can get on to healing the damage and rebuilding LSF to it’s former greatness in accordance with the bylaws and vision of the founders.
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #708

  • David Beach
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Ballot received and voted (assuming my response is received). Should I expect a confirmation email?

I sincerely regret having to vote against the proposal. I believe the LSF should formally embrace electric launched soaring, and stand by my earlier statement regarding providing assistance to the league regardless of the outcome of this election.

dbeach wrote: ...
If the LSF board determines that the best approach is to undertake a full revision of the bylaws, I’ll be happy to participate on that committee. It is my hope that a thorough revision of the bylaws that preserves ‘the SAP’ and establishes ‘the ESAP’ is something that would be well received by the current members of the league.

David Beach


I will take this opportunity to thank Jim, Ed, Rob, and Gil for their efforts to move the LSF forward. The league is hamstrung by a set of bylaws that have served it well to this point, but clearly need revision to enable future success. The LSF board deserves credit for initiating change regardless of the outcome of this election. I would much rather debate proposed changes than just sit back and watch the organization slowly wither and die from lack of direction by a disinterested board.

Thanks again,
David
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #709

  • James Deck
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Please note that the proposal contains the necessary ByLaw changes to allow the creation of the ESAP
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #710

  • Rob Glover
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This LSF Board, and its predecessor, have discussed the various proposals regarding an ESAP made by interested members and non-members for several years now. Some of the board and many of the members at large believe that the LSF can administer an ESAP, and should do so for the benefit of electric launched soaring pilots. The LSF Board may or may not unanimously support the current proposal, but we do support the memberships’ right to decide on its adoption.

What the board has not decided to do is establish a program of new tasks specifically aimed at electric launched sailplanes. Such tasks should come from the members of the electric community who have some clue as to what they want. Please note that as an LSF board member I do not have any great knowledge as to what those tasks might be, and consider myself unqualified to make such decisions. Board members have repeatedly asked members of the electric soaring community for input, and while some valuable input has been received there has been no clear alternative program put forward that the LSF is interested in pursuing. Indeed,no clear consensus has emerged from the electric community to date.

The LSF is pretty good at administering the current tasks. Lacking a better proposal after several years of discussion the board decided to let the membership decide the issue at hand. You get a vote. The fact that after all of these years of discussion you still can't make up your mind is significant. The LSF can administer a separate database for ESAP participants, but if the program looks significantly different than the current SAP things rapidly become untenable.

In an ideal world, the electric community would have already established and be administering their own program, establish their own SIG with the AMA, and run their own Nats,leaving the LSF to do what the LSF has always done. In this world that has not yet happened, and shows little sign of happening in the near future. The LSF has been given an opportunity to aid in starting a few more modelers down what we believe to be the right path. That’s pretty much the only choice to be made here.

There have been minor housekeeping details brought up, but right now they are immaterial. If the membership decides to move forward, we’ll get together and figure it out.

Whether this proposal wins or loses hinges on the vote of all LSF members, as it should. I have little insight as to what would actually be the best outcome, time will tell as always.

PS - I have the perfect solution to keep the member numbers distinct. The old guys will all have to use binary. The new guys will get roman numerals. The sticker guys will get rich. Or, we could just add columns to our database and populate it with individual members' records as we’ve always done. I promise we won’t ever run out of numbers, they are infinite. Much like the wisdom of our membership.
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #711

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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rglover wrote: Board members have repeatedly asked members of the electric soaring community for input, and while some valuable input has been received there has been no clear alternative program put forward that the LSF is interested in pursuing. Indeed,no clear consensus has emerged from the electric community to date.


I have read a lot of these threads and my assessment is threefold:

1) An internet forum is not a productive place to develop a program. There are too many opinions, too many conflicting opinions. A small task force would be much better.

2) I agree that the most common opinion on what the program should be is "the program should be just like the SAP". That's not my opinion but seems to be the most common opinion that I have read from the participants.

3) I would say the 2nd most common tweak on #2 above is folks saying "the program should be just like the SAP but allow a substitution for the 8 hour slope".


Ryan Woebkenberg, LSF 7233
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ESAP Proposal 3 years 10 months ago #712

  • Don Harban
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Right now, Article XII Is the ONLY article in the existing bylaws that addresses amending the bylaws. Notwithstanding that the Board has chosen to address amendments in a Article IV Section 1d, the amended wording – “LSF members wishing to vote on changes to an accomplishment program may only do so if they are actively involved in that program and meet the achievement levels specific to that program. (Some members may choose to actively pursue both the SAP and ESAP)” effectively amends Article XII Section 1 – “These Bylaws, and any supplements or attachments, may be altered, amended, deleted or replaced by the affirmative vote of two-thirds (2/3) of the Executive Board and subsequent concurrence of a simple majority of the votes cast by active members, except the super requirements contained in Section 2” by including people who were not previously qualified to vote ON ANYTHING AT ALL.

Right now Article XII Section 2 forbids amending Section 1 except by a supermajority vote of Level IV’s and V’s – “Proposed amendments to Article XII Section1, and Section 2, and Proposed amendments to Article XVI - LSF Soaring Accomplishment Program must meet the requirements contained in Article XII Section 1 and That vote must also contain affirmative votes of two-thirds (2/3) of the then current living Level IV’s and Level V’s.

There are ways around this that the Board has chosen to ignore – BUT CHANGING THE MEANING OF ONE SECTION WITH WORDING IN ANOTHER SECTION CAN BE (AND IN THIS CASE IS) AN AMENDMENT TO EXISTING SECTION. This is as close to a no-brainer as it gets in writing contracts and agreements.

Even if this is not a problem, the Proposal does not address how amendments to the ESAP can be accomplished. Article XII Section 2 ONLY AND EXPLICITLY describes how the SAP can be amended and this expression CANNOT be changed without the supermajority vote it calls for.

Rob suggests above that we can amend the ESAP in the future. As it stands right now, reasonable people could consider that a) there is NO PROVISION FOR AMENDING THE ESAP or b) that the ESAP can be modified by a simple majority of votes cast by active members who are participating in the ESAP program. But there is no clear meaning and no clear statement of intent. And there is no Article and Section that anyone can point to that specifies how the ESAP can be modified. Article XII Section 2 is explicit and ONLY pertains to the SAP.

Whatever anyone chooses to believe about bringing electric soaring into the LSF and whatever anyone chooses think of the actual proposed ESAP, the specific proposal is poorly written from a contractual point-of-view and will compound the difficulties related to responding to change in the future.

Perpetuating the mess that is the current bylaws and compounding it with an even more poorly written amendment will come back to bite everybody in the rear someday, much the way that the current wording has bolluxed things up.

Don Harban
LSF IV 2763
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