TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #352

  • Tom Kallevang
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I believe the Board is keeping a low profile in order to allow the members to interact without unnecessarily steering the discussion in one direction or another.

Welcome back, Barry!
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 1 month ago #353

  • Preston Heller
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ryanw wrote:

helletp wrote: On another point, I am a bit disappointed that the LSF board (except for Jim, I believe) has not weighed in with comments as this thread has developed.


Gil has also posted in this thread and on rcgroups on the eSAP thread.

Ryan


I'd like to see a bit more on this important topic, wouldn't you?

Preston
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 4 weeks ago #354

  • Ed Franz
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I am here reading and digesting all that is written. :-)

Ed
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 4 weeks ago #355

  • Preston Heller
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edfranz wrote: I am here reading and digesting all that is written. :-)

Ed


I have some Tums, if you need some....or some Maker's Mark.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 4 weeks ago #356

  • Ed Franz
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Thanks Preston! I will take the Marker's Mark for sure. Brings back good memories of that summer evening around Randy's RV.

Ed
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 4 weeks ago #357

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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helletp wrote: I'd like to see a bit more on this important topic, wouldn't you?


I respect that each person's online participation is different. I know that currently none of the board are heavy participators on rcgroups or other forums so I figure their individual participation here are in line with that. Now if I see any of them posting up a storm on the Brony forum I'm going to be like, what the what, Buttercup!

:)

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 4 weeks ago #358

  • Rob Glover
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As an LSF BOD member I am indeed monitoring these posts with interest. The BOD has been discussing this issue for several years, both internally and with various members and forums. I am in listening mode now. It's up to the electric community to tell us what the new program should look like if it's to be different than the existing one. Hopefully some consensus will be achieved and an up or down vote will settle things one way or the other.

I'm not sure that the electric community/events are mature enough to put forward a sensible flight training program for electric launched soaring that works as well as the current SAP works. Time will tell.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 4 weeks ago #359

  • James Deck
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Well, we're just past the half way point of the discussion/question period of this proposal. First, thanks to all who have taken the time to get involved. Keep your comments and questions coming.
When the founders of the LSF put together the original SAP, they didn't design a "merit badge" program but an increasingly challenging pathway to increased skills in R/C soaring. They correctly envisioned that not all would follow the pathway to its peak but thoughtfully laid out tasks that taught specific lessons at each level that are a benefit to those who tread that pathway. They also made the SAP as inclusive as they could by including slope tasks with appropriate substitutes for those participants who did not have access to a slope but made sure that those who achieved Level V had a healthy dose of slope flying. It's true that, over the years, technological progress and advances in sailplane design may have made the SAP tasks easier or at least more convenient but they have still not turned the pathway into an Interstate highway to Level V.
There have been suggestions that the ESAP tasks should be uniquely re-designed for an electric powered sailplane. To those thinking along those lines, I pass along these thoughts from an old soaring friend: Each task at each level of the SAP has lessons to be learned. If the ESAP is to have new and different tasks, then care must be taken to capture the content and value of the time tested lessons of the original SAP.
Lastly, consider that the creation and adoption of a parallel but separate ESAP has the potential not only to increase the membership of the LSF but also to rekindle some "embers" among current members.
Now back to questions and comments.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 4 weeks ago #360

  • Allen Strahm
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Rob Glover wrote:

I'm not sure that the electric community/events are mature enough to put forward a sensible flight training program for electric launched soaring that works as well as the current SAP works. Time will tell.

I believe that the E community is well prepared to attempt this task! With the advent of the flying foam cooker, getting new flyrs involved has never been easier, this eventualy moves them onto a more task specific plane, and I see a majority of the ESAP movers and shakers will come from the current LSF program, who already respect the current SAP. WE already have a national ALES program in place for contest wins and tracking, the rest will jut fall in place!

Al
AMA 3959
LSF 6959
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #363

  • Ed Anderson
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rglover wrote: As an LSF BOD member I am indeed monitoring these posts with interest. The BOD has been discussing this issue for several years, both internally and with various members and forums. I am in listening mode now. It's up to the electric community to tell us what the new program should look like if it's to be different than the existing one. Hopefully some consensus will be achieved and an up or down vote will settle things one way or the other.

I'm not sure that the electric community/events are mature enough to put forward a sensible flight training program for electric launched soaring that works as well as the current SAP works. Time will tell.


Interesting comment. What would you be using as a judgment criteria for maturity of a community?

What is it that you think the SAP program accomplishes as a training program that the electric community lacks? All the SAP has to offer an e-soaring pilot is a patch and a decal for recognition.

An e-soaring pilot can complete the SAP tasks today, but do it with electric launch. Once you hit launch height you are soaring, whether LSF recognizes that or not changes nothing about the accomplishment. Just as a very small part of the overall soaring community belongs to LSF and an even smaller percentage are actively pursuing the SAP, I don't really think the SAP is the real issue here.

The REAL issue is that LSF does not represent the electric launched soaring community. The e-soaring community does not NEED LSF to prosper. The e-soaring community is growing very nicely without any help from LSF.

The real question is, does LSF wish to represent all of soaring, as the AMA SIG, or only string and hand launch. That is the real question here. As the bylaws say that you can only join LSF by completing level one of the SAP, e-soaring pilots are excluded from LSF membership. The creation of an e-soaring SAP will allow e-soaring pilots to become part of LSF and LSF will be able to advocate for all of the soaring community.

So, the question is, does LSF have the ability to recognize that e-soaring is becoming the primary soaring launch method? That is what this discussion is REALLY about. And since the proposal is on the table I believe the LSF BOD have demonstrated the maturity and foresight to see the trend in the community and to look for a way to embrace it. The question is the form by which LSF embraces the e-soaring community.

Not trying to show any disrespect for your comment, just trying to understand what it means in the context of what is being discussed.
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