TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #384

  • Ed Anderson
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Gordy,

As always, you raise some interesting points and since it seems your questions are to me I will try to answer them directly. Some of these I answered and documented earlier in the discussion but will do so again here since you missed them.

gordysoar wrote: Ed says....

After all, LSF is an elitist organization by design, or so the history of LSF states. It is there to provide recognition for accomplishments. Not everyone cares about that recognition.

This is why many of the comments in this topic are simply stupid. Guys 'contributing' who don't have a clue about what they are talking about.

The LSF program is a pilot training course with each task designed to create a foundation for skills needed to improve. The tasks were created so that a pilot interested in improving his personal flying skills could self test himself.
How do I know that? .....I spoke to some of the founders and guys who flew with the founders when I did research for an article on the LSF. While you guess, suppose, and then type...I did the work.

An "Elitest Organization by design"? Provide some actual historical, or actual information that proves that statement....heck just define what it is you mean "...by design".

The LSF Organization is NOT there to provide recognition, however it does share news of each participants completion of levels for anyone interested.

It is NOT an "elitest organization" but the guys who do all the work do end up being part of an elite group of rc soaring pilots....elite because there are sooo few who do it.

LSF5's are an elite group because as I have stated before, it takes thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of effort and a commitment to the tasks only 130 rc soaring pilots in the history of the universe have completed.


Gordy, you should know by now that I always have documentation and facts to back up what I say. If I am expressing an opinion I say so. I will quote the LSF web site, since it seems you have not read the content.

How the LSF began
www.silentflight.org/images/documents/lsfstory.pdf

The LSF Story ( I am only posting relevant excerpts. You can read the whole article yourself. I have added bold and color to call out specific relevant parts within the quotes.)

By Scott Christensen, LSF 001
(Written in 1988, and submitted by Bob Steele, President of the LSF.)

During this same summer and fall period of time, Le Gray, Duane Myer, Keith
Brewster, and myself began some serious talks about an R/C soaring program,
of sorts, that would approximate full-scale soaring’s Flight Achievement Program.

This very successful program worked within and throughout the fullscale
soaring community and, in essence, memorialized an individual’s achievements
in soaring, against a given set of criteria. This program could be actively
pursued by anyone, regardless of club affiliation, etc. It awarded diamonds for
each phase or level of achievement, and was generally referred to as the “Diamond
Program”. The most important aspect of such a program, we all felt, was
the recognition of the individual. This meant, to us, that anyone, anywhere,
regardless of club affiliation, country of origin, etc., could reap benefits from
participating in such a program.
What were these benefits? In order of importance,
I think we saw these as: 1) becoming a better pilot through participation,
2) being recognized for achieving a given level of accomplishments, and 3) being
a member of an organization which sought only better piloting, instead of
endless funding. There was a kind of simple truth in all of this that really
appealed to us. We, as a group, set out to come up with such a program.


snip...

Lastly, we wanted these levels
of accomplishment to create a true pyramid of membership. In other words,
those people with the will to do so would be able to make it to the top, but there
would be darned few of them. The goal was to set a standard of excellence that
was so high that when you ran into a Level V pilot, you had automatic respect
for both him and his abilities, not only as a pilot, but as a person. Looking back
over the years, I’d have to say that the program did precisely what it initially set
out to do
.


A program that would generate automatic recognition and respect for your accomplishments. That was one of the goals of the program.


As for being a elitist group, perhaps you don't understand the word. Let me help you.

www.thefreedictionary.com/elite
e·lite or é·lite (-lt, -lt)
n. pl. elite or e·lites
1.
a. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status: "In addition to notions of social equality there was much emphasis on the role of elites and of heroes within them" (Times Literary Supplement).

b. The best or most skilled members of a group: the football team's elite.



Of all people Gordy, I am surprised that you do not recognize the elite nature of achieving Level V and the recognition that goes with it.

In addition it seems to be your attitude that only those who strive to this "elite" level should even bother to join. The rest of us riff raff should take our limited skills and lousy attitudes somewhere else. If THAT is not an elitist attitude I don't know what is.

e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.



You will note that not all members of LSF have equal standing. That certain rules and changes can only be made by the elite of the corp, the Level IVs and Vs. The rest of the membership has no voting rights in certain situations.

In my opinion, LSF is not an organization for the people, it is for the few who qualify and clearly not all qualify. You have to earn your way in and only if you do it a certain way. LSF is an exclusive group for those who "fit the model".

And if it were to have remained that way that would have been fine. But it has expanded its goals, according to the LSF web site.

LSF is now the SIG for soaring to the AMA. But it is not for all soaring, only certain kinds of soaring. Only the exclusive group that launches via winch, hi-start or hand launch. Electric launched soaring pilots are excluded. So I ask, how can LSF represent soaring when it excludes a large and growing part of the soaring community?

gordysoar wrote: "Powered or non powered sailplanes" ???? Its either powered or not. Electric motor launched sailplanes, hand launched sailplanes, or towed sailplanes. The moment the motor is turned back on after a launch, an electric launch sailplane becomes an electric powered airplane with long wings. We get guys showing up with 'warm liner' park flyer stuff claiming they should be able to fly on our club sailplane field because they have a 'glider'...."After all we do turn the motor off!..and on, and off, and on...." Until you, Ed Anderson, acknowledge this distinction, you will never understand anything about this proposal except that you 'feel' electric powered models should be part of the LSF Task program...

Why does any electric powered sailplane :-) flyer want to be included in the LSF Task Program....because they want to join the 'elite". IF its not for 'recognition' then just do the tasks without the paper work. Just do the tasks without the paper work, save the stamps.

And one last thing....the LSF membership has no need to "grow". It grows when an individual decides to get involved, not because some cool slogan like "Get the Bug!" entices them in.....okay there is that recognition thing....which you imply is a dirty thing.


Gordy, I am surprised you picked this to call out. As former President of the Eastern Soaring League, former Newsletter Editor of same, Former VP and President of the Long Island Silent Flyers I have plenty of credentials and documentation to support my understanding of the distinction between pure gliders, electric launched thermal gliders and hotliners. As one of the authors of the LISF New member packet we made a point to call this out, not by type of plane alone, but how it is flow.
www.lisf.org/home/new_member_info/new_member_info.html

However, unlike you, if a pilot wishes to buy a "hotliner" but chooses to thermal soar it, I will do nothing to condemn him for this activity. I do not judge people by the type of glider in their hands but by their actions. As long as it is a glider and is flown in a glider like fashion for thermal soaring he or she is welcome at our field.

However non-gliders are not welcome at our field. F27 Strykers, Mustangs and the like are not gliders, are not sold as gliders and the people who bought them never had any intention of flying them as gliders.


As for the need or lack of need for LSF to grow. I would agree with that if LSF had remained a SAP administrative body strictly devoted to the activities of the pure glider community. But, in my opinion, it has been taken beyond that point. It now the SIG for soaring to the AMA. And I feel a SIG should carry the voice of its members and today its members are few and exclusive and not representative of the soaring community as a whole.

And this comes to the crux of the question. What is LSF and what is it to become? Shall it revert to a task program and withdraw from the other things it is doing, or is it going to be the SIG for Soaring and the promoter of Soaring that it seems to be evolving into and which it claims to be?

It can go back to being strictly the administrate body for the SAP, creating recognition for the accomplishments of a select group of pilots flying pure gliders. Nothing wrong with that and if it wants to go back to that then I have no objection.

But if it is going to be a SIG then it is my opinion that it has to open its doors to the soaring community as a whole.

I realize that LSF stepped in to help out with the ALES contest this year, but if it will continue to play a role in ALES, and I think that would be good, then it has to open its doors to the electric soaring community.


As I see it, LSF is at a cross roads and needs to decide what it is going to be.

Will it stand still and live in the past as a task program? That is OK.

Or will it move forward with the hobby and sport of soaring?

If that were not the question at hand then this proposition for an eSAP would not be on the table.


==================

gordysoar wrote: I never ever once thought, "Wow if I complete all the LSF levels, every one will love me and think I'm really cool!" When I did complete the final task and got my Task Sheet back, I thought, " I can't believe I ate the whole thing!"

"I" did it, not the LSF Organization. I did it with my sailplanes, and with the support of my soaring friends and mentors....many who had not completed or participated in the LSF Tasks.


Then I will expect that this will be the last time that you publicly call attention to your Level V accomplishment. You did it, you shared it with the world and you should be proud of it. But if you are going to call attention to it and openly speak of it than the idea that you are not seeking recognition for this accomplishment rings very hollow.

You did it, you are proud of it and you want to be recognized as one of the elite who have reached this level of accomplishment. You are part of an exclusive club of 135 pilot who have accomplished such a thing. Congratulations!

gordysoar wrote:
ED, since there are sooo many Electric Launch Contests and pilots exploding on the scene... name 5 electric launch sailplane pilots who you believe have the right stuff and interest to complete all 5 levels of the program. Just 5 names who want to become one of the elite. If you can't, then why the bother?

I know more rc sailplane pilots in the world than all of you contributing to this discussion. Know means, have flown with them, slept with some, dined with most. That likely includes ALES pilots too. Likely Larry comes in right behind me...yet you want to imply that you 'know' what those mysterious others want?


There is that elitist attitude again. It seems you feel that only those who will commit to finishing all 5 levels need apply. The rest of the huddled masses that never get past level 2 should turn in your LSF numbers and go away! At least that is how I read your comment.

Statistics suggest that less than 1/3 of those who join ever make it past level 3. That is based on what is on the LSF web site. If someone in LSF has better numbers, please share them. But it would seem you would throw them out for their lack of commitment? Do they dishonor the organization?

Elitism in its purest form. But I put that on you Gordy, not on the LSF.

gordysoar wrote:
Those of you who want your words considered, think your words are worth considering, prove you believe your words have value by signing your name to your words. This isn't RC Groups where guys pretend to be someone they aren't, this is the LSF, you know guys who have decided to be a part of something more than just flying around with toy airplanes. Sign name to your words if you believe they are worth us reading. If they aren't worth the effort, well I guess then you know their value better than us.

I do ;-)
Gordy
PS, Don, I'm not sad, and I didn't infer that there weren't any sincere Electric Flyers, I said it out right and I asked for proof of 5 names. Who are these poor discriminated souls dying for the opportunity to join the 130-ish Elite?


If my name on the left is not sufficient, let me put it all here.

Ed Anderson, Long Island, NY

Flying since 2003
Former VP and President of Long Island Silent Flyers
Former President and Newsletter Editor Eastern Soaring League
Co-CD LISF ALES monthly contest
AMA Contest Director
Co-CD for 2 ESL contests at LISF
Publisher of the Weekend Flying Report Newsletter
AMA Introductory Pilot
LISF Instructor and Flight Examiner
AMA Leader Member 771415
LSF 8044

I am an owner of winch, retriever, hi-starts, OneWinch, DLGs, slope AND electric thermal soaring gliders and I enjoy them all. And, while rarely flown, I also own electric airplanes and some micro helis too. And I enjoy them too.


BTW, I am an LSF level 2 and will likely never go beyond that. While I have attended way more than enough contests and had thermal and slope flights sufficient to meet the level 3 I have never documented them. I may one day do the XC task and my actually meet the requirements for level 3 and 4, but will never document it or turn in the papers.

I joined LSF to support the SIG and to add to the numbers to provide it strength. That was my only goal. While I once aspired to complete the program that is no longer the case.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #385

  • Preston Heller
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The following comments may upset some, so please don't take any of this personally. It is quite sad to see this recent turn in the conversation. When someone like Don Harban says he's bowing out of something I know he has great interest in, I can't help but wonder if some among us are not playing the role of agent provoctateur, intentionally trying to create dissension, dissipate focus and maintain the status quo. I abhor politics but it is part and parcel of getting things done. However, I suspect that many LSF members (as well as those in the RCG forum where these questions are addressed) see the inflammatory and antagonistic remarks, put forth by a few, exactly for what they are. Trying to disguise opinions and state them as if they were actual facts is anyone's right, but as I have pointed out -- the least bit of inspection shows them up for what they are -- just one man's opinion. Asking questions for which there are no real answers, like naming names, diverts the conversation into the realm of "no they aren't...yes they are" - more opinions.

LSF is an organization for all of its members, not just the ones who make Level V or aspire to make Level V. Nowhere is such a requirement for membership stated. So any kind of discussion about there not being 5 people who would even try for e-SAP V is nothing more than a diversionary tactic and should be dismissed out of hand, but just to put out the fire - Curtis named three and Dave B. and myself make 5. So what? It's playground stuff.

If you are going to vote against bringing e-soaring into the LSF because you got your ego bruised during this discussion, I'd bet the farm you would have voted against it anyway.

In any case I'd like to see Don get back into the conversation. I don't always agree with everything he says, but I feel that he has always been trying to move this process forward.

I am an LSF III (and a half). And that's all you need to know.

Preston
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #386

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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Nice post (if a bit long), Ed. One quick correction/misconception though:

eAnderson wrote: You will note that not all members of LSF have equal standing. That certain rules and changes can only be made by the elite of the corp, the Level IVs and Vs. The rest of the membership has no voting rights in certain situations.


That's not completely accurate. There are some voting things that additionally require a type of super majority. For example bylaws changes require a 2/3 in favor vote from the board. But all votable items can be voted on by all LSF members. What I think you are referring to is changing the SAP. That requires a majority in favor vote from all LSF members that chose to vote, a 2/3 in favor vote from the board, and a 2/3 in favor vote from all living L4s and L5s. All members that chose to vote would still have a vote.

Something that doesn't require any vote at all is new programs. The LSF president can implement whatever committees that he/she chooses and those don't need to be voted on by anyone. A great example of this is the AMA Nats.

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #387

  • Ed Anderson
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ryanw wrote: Nice post (if a bit long), Ed. One quick correction/misconception though:

eAnderson wrote: You will note that not all members of LSF have equal standing. That certain rules and changes can only be made by the elite of the corp, the Level IVs and Vs. The rest of the membership has no voting rights in certain situations.


That's not completely accurate. There are some voting things that additionally require a type of super majority. For example bylaws changes require a 2/3 in favor vote from the board. But all votable items can be voted on by all LSF members. What I think you are referring to is changing the SAP. That requires a majority in favor vote from all LSF members that chose to vote, a 2/3 in favor vote from the board, and a 2/3 in favor vote from all living L4s and L5s. All members that chose to vote would still have a vote.

Something that doesn't require any vote at all is new programs. The LSF president can implement whatever committees that he/she chooses and those don't need to be voted on by anyone. A great example of this is the AMA Nats.

Ryan


Thanks for the clarification. As elected officials I expect the Board to carry extra weight in decision making. It was the 2/3 of Level 4 and 5 that I was talking about. While it still elevates those pilots I can see now that I miss interpreted the meaning of that passage. Thanks for your help.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #388

  • Scott Gifford
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Having read the discussion here on the forum I am struck by several thoughts.

When I was starting in modeling, the high performance sailplanes were all hand built from balsa, ply and hardwoods. Plastic and foam models, which were preassembled, were a joke; you wouldn’t be caught dead with one. Ok, true; some people were experimenting with foam core components. Carbon? That’s in your pencil and #6 on the Periodic Chart. Electric motors for model use were the winches and starters. Electric motors for propulsion mounted in the models were a pipe dream.

I am kicking myself (and have been for a long time) that I did not join LSF in the ‘70’s when I started soaring competitively. Looking back, I would be at Level III or higher now. But that is water over the dam. I am a member now and want to continue. My hat is off to everyone who has completed Level V and have decided to start all over again.

I feel that the original founders of LSF could not have imagined how technology would advance. Example: hand launch. If you want to get technical, hand launch would not qualify (as I read the By-Laws and SAP) for LSF because there is no towline involved. Yet from what I read (post 191), hand launch is allowed. Did anybody want a separate badge system for people who did the entire program with hand launch?

LSF is now the SIG for soaring for the AMA, something the original founders did not think about because SIG’s did not exist when LSF was founded.

I look at the Badge system for full size soaring. I am a glider pilot with the FAI A, B, C, Bronze and Silver badges (and have half of the requirements for Gold). I see people who strive to accomplish those goal flights in the lowly 1-26 (I used to be one of those until I sold my ship), instead of a glass slipper with a glide ratio in excess of 50:1. I see a lot of similarities between the two programs, organizations and memberships.

People are saying that LSF cannot implement an eSAP because it is against the bylaws. Now the only areas needing the super majority is amending Section XII (amendments) and the current SAP. So the simple majority could implement an eSAP as Article XVII.

I am in full support of an eSAP, and have an eSAP specific Level badge or identification. This could be something simple as the letter “E” before or after the level number.

Post 161 has good ideas, very similar to my thoughts.

Post 184 has good ideas. The original program was meant to be more and more difficult as you rose thru the levels. The ESAP should be the same. After all, what is the purpose of these programs? It’s personal growth and improvement, with a measuring stick to compare your skills with your peers.

Post 193 has a good idea, must declare the goal prior to flight. After all, the full size guys have to do this for their badge flights.

Post 384 has comments I totally agree with: “As I see it, LSF is at a cross roads and needs to decide what it is going to be. Will it stand still and live in the past as a task program? That is OK. Or will it move forward with the hobby and sport of soaring?” Either way, I am ok with it. My preference is that LSF moves forward.

Several have commented that many current LSF members are already flying both type of sailplanes. Several have made the comment that there will be members crossing to the other program, and I agree because I will be one of those. Everything about these programs is personal growth and improvement. I can see where ALES can enable a pilot to take more chances because there is a safety net of the restart. Yes it voids the flight, but the aircraft (which could be very expensive) can be brought back safely. But this safety net improves the pilot’s confidence to the point where he will hopefully cross over and do the original SAP.

LSF numbers are numbers assigned to members as they qualify, members of the entire organization.

One last comment: people have bashed the SAP as being “elitist”, like it is a bad thing. 135 people have achieved Level V since 1968 and there are well over 8,000 members. That’s less than 2% of the membership has achieved Level V. Well I am sorry, but when you have a program that gets harder as you progress, the few who achieve it are elite, top of the line, or world class.

Today’s society that doesn’t keep score, or awards kids for just showing up is destroying the future.

Scott Gifford
AMA 5285, LSF 8104 Level I
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #389

  • Warren Avis
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I no longer care after all the brew-haha. It's completely silly some of the stuff that has leaked from otherwise great minds.
Even though I've been a LSF member for almost 40 years, I've never felt that I belonged to anything other than an good ol' boys club with the attitude of some (not all, don't start), even some lower level people. It's not changed one bit with the SIG designation apparently. I pretty much get it now, the powers to be and some not to be don't want to be a SIG. The message I'm hearing is 'Let us suffer in our own stuckup way in our own little corner of the model hobby and the heck with anybody that thinks different than us.' I belong to a number of other model related organizations and don't see the attitudes I see here. It's a damned shame, all I can say.

Can I resign? Anybody want to buy a nice low LSF number?

W.L.Avis
AMA 7224
LSF 1832
Level II 7/8
NFFS
SAM
Send hate mail to This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #390

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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I don't understand why anybody would let the rantings of a very small number of people affect their feelings/passion about things. If you are passionate about the LSF, soaring, etc. don't let the opinions of 2 or 3 guys (especially if I'm one of those guys, I'm a total idiot) get you down. Rise above them.

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #391

  • Red Scholefield
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Aquila Guy's post gives me hope. As a 100% electric guy now at age 83, maybe I can start working at advancing in LSF levels with my electrified Bird of Time.

Red S.
AMA 951, LSF 412
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #392

  • Preston Heller
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Leadchucker wrote: I no longer care after all the brew-haha. It's completely silly some of the stuff that has leaked from otherwise great minds.
Even though I've been a LSF member for almost 40 years, I've never felt that I belonged to anything other than an good ol' boys club with the attitude of some (not all, don't start), even some lower level people. It's not changed one bit with the SIG designation apparently. I pretty much get it now, the powers to be and some not to be don't want to be a SIG. The message I'm hearing is 'Let us suffer in our own stuckup way in our own little corner of the model hobby and the heck with anybody that thinks different than us.' I belong to a number of other model related organizations and don't see the attitudes I see here. It's a damned shame, all I can say.

Can I resign? Anybody want to buy a nice low LSF number?

W.L.Avis
AMA 7224
LSF 1832
Level II 7/8
NFFS
SAM
Send hate mail to This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.


Warren, how much do you want for that low number? ;)

The AMA lost my original number in the fire and there is no way they can recover it. It was from 1960!

Hang in there, my friend. This is not over by a long shot.

Preston
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #393

  • Preston Heller
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ryanw wrote: I don't understand why anybody would let the rantings of a very small number of people affect their feelings/passion about things. If you are passionate about the LSF, soaring, etc. don't let the opinions of 2 or 3 guys (especially if I'm one of those guys, I'm a total idiot) get you down. Rise above them.

Ryan


It is not often that I agree with you, Ryan, but in this instance it's 100%. ;)

Preston
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