TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #394

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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helletp wrote: It is not often that I agree with you, Ryan, but in this instance it's 100%. ;)


Stay thirsty, my friend.

:)

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #395

  • Garry Ogilvie
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ryanw wrote: I don't understand why anybody would let the rantings of a very small number of people affect their feelings/passion about things. If you are passionate about the LSF, soaring, etc. don't let the opinions of 2 or 3 guys (especially if I'm one of those guys, I'm a total idiot) get you down. Rise above them.

Ryan


I agree!

Remember that every member gets to vote, No matter if you are a shy Level 1, or an egotistical Level V, all votes count the same so please use your privilege!

Garry Ogilvie
AMA 101552
LSF 5504, Level 2
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #396

  • Ed Anderson
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I know that this debating of issues upset some people but, guys, this is the American way. We debate and agree to disagree and hopefully out of this debate the best solution will arise.

Over the course of this discussion I have offered various thoughts about the eSAP program, the tasks and such. And my opinon has changed with the presentation of new ideas by people posting in the thread.


So let me summarize my position:

I think LSF should embrace all forms of soaring
I think LSF should be the SIG for all forms of soaring to the AMA
I think LSF should embrace the goal of promoting soaring in all its various forms.

This goes beyond the vision of the founders but I think it is time to make that change.


Here is my latest proposal and one that I think can address many of the concerns expressed here.


* eSAP and SAP have the same tasks but have different patches, decals, etc.

* Tasks for one do not count toward the other

* The launch height outlined in the current proposal is fine and is consistent with common practice and what is possible with pure gliders on a winch.


What about the restart question?


* For Levels 1, 2 and 3 - the pilot can have the restart set to on. If he restarts he fails the task. Period.

* For levels 4 and 5 tasks, restart must be disabled.

* for all contests, the restart option will be according to the rules of the contest placing the LSF pilot on an equal footing with all the other pilots in the contest. It makes no sense to place an LSF 4 or 5 aspirant at a disadvantage in a contest just because he is working on eSAP 3, 4 and 5.

For level 4 and 5 tasks, once you are working on level 4 and 5 tasks you have demonstrated your skills and should be ready and confident to go out without a safety net, just like the pure glider guys.

So, that is my proposal in summary.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #397

  • Curtis Suter
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Three Cheers for eAnderson!!!

Now my Ramblimgs
I started flying gas RC models in the late 70's and my best friend introduced me to slope soaring in the late 80's in Germany. I have not flown a gas model since 1992. Since then it has been all pure TD gliders, some electric aerobatic models and a helicopter, if you call the latter one flying! ;-)

I flew TD in SoCal (SSJSS, PSS, SULA, CVRC etc.) and enjoyed my LSF journey through Level III. I have not done anything with the LSF since moving to Montana just past the turn of this century. Why? There was no one else who flew winch, hi-start etc. of course I heard things like, there are no thermals in Montana, the lift sucks, gliders are boring etc.... Nothing new as we have all heard these things before. That is why the LSF is important, even if only through the first level.

So I tried for years to get folks into gliders, hi-starts, DLG etc... The only thing that stuck was electric gliders, but then they wanted models that looked like a full size glider. So there was only a handful of interest. I still wanted to fly contests!

Then the altitude limiter came on scene. I held an impromptu ALES contest clinic at the local power field and now, two years later we have close to 15 pilots flying our monthly contests, learning about composite structures and aerodynamics. I am amazed that we have not lost any interest at all. None! Our second annual two day ALES contest had 28 pilots!

I have not educated many folks on the benefits of the LSF as it does not apply to what we fly. I am still stuck on the fact that if the motor cannot be restarted after shutdown till the model is on the ground that there is no difference. Heck, I can restart my motor and during a contest I landed so far out I was sure the model would have been damaged, but luckily it was not. My timer and I both forgot we could restart it and bring it home with the same contest score result! Old habits are hard to break. Restart of the motor for the LSF is a mute point during contests but during other tasks such as the cross country it is a big deal.

I have always thought it took more money to be a competitive soaring enthusiast than an everyday power flyer. That may have changed since the 90's. I learned more about aerodynamics in the first year of flying gliders than all my previous decade of flying gas models. I think working with Mother Nature and the aerodynamic knowledge was the hook for me. I enjoy the structures now too.

It has been over a decade since I have done anything for my next LSF level which I still cherish the journey I took. So why have I stopped the LSF journey?; money and time. Many of the Level V's either live where they can easily accomplish the rest of the tasks or are fortunate enough to have time and money to do so. So what would I have to do is not only increase my flying skill but I would have to buy the rest of my way in via travel and time away from work and family.

I was fortunate in life where I was able to buy my current profession. It cost about $45,000 and five years of no free time but school, fun school that is and was then fortunate and skilled enough to be able to perform the work. I just don't think the LSF should be a purchase program to the big prize. My opinion. How many folks never make the Olympics because of money? I am sure many. So I do understand it though and am not suggesting any changes.

I am also saying that no matter how far or how little one uses the LSF program it is all a plus for soaring. If you think electrics are not the future of soaring, perhaps they won't surpass slicks but they may equal numbers sooner than later. To see what can be done please visit Montana the middle of August 2014 and I hope to not only show what we have done but maybe show you a trout, mountain, coffee or beer that you have not experienced. :-)

I would very much like to see inclusion of electric assisted gliders to some kind of program and one that didn't require a bank account to test those skills.

So those are my ramblings, not that you asked. :-)

Curtis

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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #398

  • Barbara L Robinson
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Finally someone has focused in on the issues at hand and has proposed a solution that addresses all the concerns. eAnderson sums it all up with logical proposals that are straight forward and easy to understand. Thank you for putting it all into prospective. I can accept the proposal outlined in this post as it addresses my concerns previously raised as well as other points raised during these ramblings. I hope the LSF Board will pay close attention to this proposal.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #399

  • Robert Robinson
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Thank you eAnderson for summarizing what LSF should continue to represent and for recommending a solution that both leaves the integrity of the original SAP intact, welcomes a new ESAP program that is not distinctly different, and that addresses the restart issues. This solution is acceptable to me leaving my original SAP achievement to stand on it's own merits and allows me to explore the ESAP achievement program with electric sailplanes. I can support this proposal and hope the LSF Board is listening.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #400

  • James Deck
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The following was sent directly to me and, at the request of the LSF member who sent it, I am posting the following on his behalf:

There is no doubt that the LSF organization will embrace electric launched sailplanes but how to do it in an equitable manner has not been finalized. That is the reason for the current LSF Forum to allow LSF members to publish ideas on ways to accomplish the inclusion of electric launched sailplanes within the LSF organization without depreciating the existing winch launched sailplane arrangement that was and still is the foundation of LSF.

To that end I would like to propose a way that could possibly accomplish this result.
1) Adopt the current LSF Bylaws for the electric launched program within the LSF umbrella and retitle the Bylaws identifying them as Bylaws for electric launched sailplanes. This could, done correctly, allow for the current SAP and a new ESAP to work side by side within the LSF umbrella without deprecating the original SAP and allowing the new ESAP to gain its own functionality and respect alongside the original SAP. If there are any changes required to the new ESAP Bylaws that will accommodate electric launched sailplanes, that could be easily done as these are actually a new set Bylaws.
2) Also adopt (copy) the LSF tasks with the necessary changes to allow electric launching rather than winch launching but no changes would be required to the tasks as the existing tasks have served quite well for over 40 years and it makes no sense to fix what is not broken.

And with this we now could have co existing SAPs under the LSF umbrella without having to co-mingle the two SAPs.

I am not going to pretend to detail the changes required to do what I have described above because that should be the responsibility of the LSF Board and those who consult with them. I am ready to help with this transition if asked to.

The KISS method (KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID) always works better.
Dave Corven LSF # 254
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #401

  • Clarence Ashcraft
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eAnderson wrote: What about the restart question?


* For Levels 1, 2 and 3 - the pilot can have the restart set to on. If he restarts he fails the task. Period.

* For levels 4 and 5 tasks, restart must be disabled.

* for all contests, the restart option will be according to the rules of the contest placing the LSF pilot on an equal footing with all the other pilots in the contest. It makes no sense to place an LSF 4 or 5 aspirant at a disadvantage in a contest just because he is working on eSAP 3, 4 and 5.

For level 4 and 5 tasks, once you are working on level 4 and 5 tasks you have demonstrated your skills and should be ready and confident to go out without a safety net, just like the pure glider guys.

So, that is my proposal in summary.


All this is good but I am not looking at buying another style of Cam unit as I have three of them right now, restarting is not an issue for Me because for as many years that I have been flying I know how far My limits are to get back without killing My plane.

Clarence Ashcraft
LSF # 7390 IV
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #402

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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eAnderson wrote: Here is my latest proposal and one that I think can address many of the concerns expressed here.


* eSAP and SAP have the same tasks but have different patches, decals, etc.


I still suggest now would be the best opportunity to try to resolve some of the issues that people have had with the SAP over the years. I think we can do that with substitution options that still give people the choice to use the SAP methods if they chose to yet make the entire program a bit more inclusive.

Regarding restarts, I think we should be inclusive and not worry about them. But then I think we should be so inclusive that we don't even worry about limiters at all. At least not for the early levels.

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #403

  • Scott Gifford
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Clarence Ashcraft wrote:

eAnderson wrote: What about the restart question?


* For Levels 1, 2 and 3 - the pilot can have the restart set to on. If he restarts he fails the task. Period.

* For levels 4 and 5 tasks, restart must be disabled.

* for all contests, the restart option will be according to the rules of the contest placing the LSF pilot on an equal footing with all the other pilots in the contest. It makes no sense to place an LSF 4 or 5 aspirant at a disadvantage in a contest just because he is working on eSAP 3, 4 and 5.

For level 4 and 5 tasks, once you are working on level 4 and 5 tasks you have demonstrated your skills and should be ready and confident to go out without a safety net, just like the pure glider guys.

So, that is my proposal in summary.


All this is good but I am not looking at buying another style of Cam unit as I have three of them right now, restarting is not an issue for Me because for as many years that I have been flying I know how far My limits are to get back without killing My plane.

Clarence Ashcraft
LSF # 7390 IV



I think Clarence's comment needs reinforcement. The new proposed eSAP should NOT get too detailed in the equipment details, since there are different manufactures making the stuff, plus there will be changes in technology in the future.

Keep the basics simple. I also am a firm believer in KISS.

Scott
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