TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #404

  • Ed Anderson
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Clarence Ashcraft wrote:

eAnderson wrote: What about the restart question?


* For Levels 1, 2 and 3 - the pilot can have the restart set to on. If he restarts he fails the task. Period.

* For levels 4 and 5 tasks, restart must be disabled.

* for all contests, the restart option will be according to the rules of the contest placing the LSF pilot on an equal footing with all the other pilots in the contest. It makes no sense to place an LSF 4 or 5 aspirant at a disadvantage in a contest just because he is working on eSAP 3, 4 and 5.

For level 4 and 5 tasks, once you are working on level 4 and 5 tasks you have demonstrated your skills and should be ready and confident to go out without a safety net, just like the pure glider guys.

So, that is my proposal in summary.


All this is good but I am not looking at buying another style of Cam unit as I have three of them right now, restarting is not an issue for Me because for as many years that I have been flying I know how far My limits are to get back without killing My plane.

Clarence Ashcraft
LSF # 7390 IV


I understand, but I want you to take this beyond your personal position and look at it in the larger context.

I see you are an SAP Level IV. Assuming you were to pursue eSAP you could complete eSAP Levels 1-3 with your current CAM. And could do your level IV contests before you would need a specialized ALES/Fj5 type device to do your eSAP Level IV and V tasks.

Then you would have to decide if you are willing to invest $50 to pursue eSAP levels IV and V tasks.

Really, is that such a big deal? Heck, you could borrow one for the LSF eSAP Level IV and V tasks.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #405

  • Ed Anderson
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BTW, for those who do not know what these Altitude Limiters are, here are a few you can look at. They are small, light and not real expensive. These would be what a pilot would need to pursue the eSAP.

The Soaring Circuits CAM is probably the most popular for ALES contest use:
It does allow a motor restart though I am sure Soaring Circuits could make a version
that does not allow this. I leave it in my e-glder all the time.
www.soaringcircuits.com/

Wing Shadow Sky Limit
www.wingedshadow.com/skylimit.html

HobbyKing
www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__2849...or_r_c_airplane.html

RC Multi 2
www.esoaringgadgets.co.uk/index.php?main...Path=4&products_id=8

Altis 4
www.aerobtec.com/products/rc-electronics/altis-v4/

Prices run around $35 to $95.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #406

  • Barry Andersen
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I'm pleased to see some very reasonable responses to the recent incendiary, insulting, rude posts. Moreover, the "facts" stated are questionable to flat wrong. I have no desire to argue the facts or get in a pissing contest with either Jolly or Gordy. Don Harbon has been a champion of reason and good humor. I hope to see him return to the task at hand. Ed, Ryan, Preston and others have been consistent reasonable contributors. I'm happy to see that people are not willing to let the recent nasty posts derail what is in my opinion best for soaring and LSF.

Don Harbon at one point talked about "do no harm". I still have a hard time understanding what harm will come to LSF or soaring by allowing e-gliders to participate. One of the things that I believe needs to be addressed to quiet the fears of some is that members participating in the ESAP cannot vote to change the current SAP. The original proposal posted in the "News" section should take care of adding ESAP and e-gliders. Adding part e: "LSF member may only vote to change the SAP they are participating in", would keep the original SAP safe and the accomplishments of those who have achieved level V undiminished. See post #347.

I also suggested adding: Article XII, add section 4:
The ESAP is provisional and may be modified by the affirmative vote of two-thirds of the Executive Board and subsequent concurrence of a simple majority of the votes cast by active members.

Again, I think it is too soon to lock in an ESAP. Having said that, I remain a fan of TK's original ESAP proposal. It's in post #184. While I expressed concern about the number of contestants required, I'm happy enough to support it as is to keep things simple and moving.

Ryan asked for feedback about a post suggesting possible ESAP tasks. I think that all this has become so convoluted that it's best at this point to follow the KISS principle referred to earlier. The ESAP can be modified later as needed.

Ed's summary is a good place to respond specifically:

I think LSF should embrace all forms of soaring -- Support
I think LSF should be the SIG for all forms of soaring to the AMA -- Support
I think LSF should embrace the goal of promoting soaring in all its various forms. -- Support

* eSAP and SAP have the same tasks but have different patches, decals, etc.
Not sure. TK's ESAP is similar but not matching. Please review TK's ESAP if you haven't recently. I don't think different patches and decals are necessary. The earlier proposal to simply show LSF IIIe should suffice. Frankly, I don't think it a big issue. I don't envision people displaying a level they haven't earned.

* Tasks for one do not count toward the other -- Support

* The launch height outlined in the current proposal is fine and is consistent with common practice and what is possible with pure gliders on a winch.
If you mean the launch height in TK's proposal I agree and support.

What about the restart question?

* For Levels 1, 2 and 3 - the pilot can have the restart set to on. If he restarts he fails the task. Period.
-- Support

* For levels 4 and 5 tasks, restart must be disabled. -- Strongly disagree

* for all contests, the restart option will be according to the rules of the contest placing the LSF pilot on an equal footing with all the other pilots in the contest. It makes no sense to place an LSF 4 or 5 aspirant at a disadvantage in a contest just because he is working on eSAP 3, 4 and 5. -- Support

For level 4 and 5 tasks, once you are working on level 4 and 5 tasks you have demonstrated your skills and should be ready and confident to go out without a safety net, just like the pure glider guys. -- I don't think it's necessary, while it's not a great expense, it does involve another piece of gear, that may or may not be easy to access and change out. Mostly, I think it's not necessary to add this level of risk to very expensive gliders. If I have spent almost an hour or two trying to make the time and have two witnesses on hand, I'm not going to restart under any circumstances except to save my glider. The penalty of simply not making the task as you suggest for levels 1, 2, 3, is great enough.

Am I correct in assuming that the board will review all the posts and modify the current proposal listed in "News" if deemed wise and necessary? Will the modifications be posted ahead of the date to vote?

Respectfully

Barry Andersen
LSF 7319
AMA 1933 Contest Director; Leader-Admin
flying RC since 1959 (yep, built an ACE vacuum tube receiver, single channel escapement)
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #407

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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What about updating the documentation process from what is used by the SAP to something a bit more modern?

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #408

  • Preston Heller
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ryanw wrote: What about updating the documentation process from what is used by the SAP to something a bit more modern?

Ryan


Great idea, Ryan. I'm guessing you mean some kind of computer program. Why don't you work on programming something that we can implement when the ESAP gets put in place. Other than that any such discussion would be a diversion from the task at hand. Perhaps you could start another thread if you need specific ideas.

Preston
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #409

  • Ed Anderson
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No one hates paper forms and mailing stuff more than I do, but I would not suggest we expand the scope of the issue beyond the introduction of the eSAP.

I don't think a vote is needed to change the documentation process. And if you make that part of the discussion then the eSAP will drown in the cross talk.

It is like painting the dining room. Oh, if we are going to paint then we should change the moldings. Oh, if we are going to change the moldings we really need new curtains. Oh, if we are going to do that I would really like a new window.

Net net, the dining room does not get painted because there is no money for the rest of it.

One miracle at a time would be my suggestion. We can address other things at another time.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #410

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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If this is something we can change later then I am fine waiting till later to discuss. If this can't be changed later if we don't discuss it now then we are out of luck.

I'm not sure if the paper process is part of the SAP or not which is one reason I want to discuss it now. I know the dollar amount for levels was changed from $1.00 to $2.00 some time in the last 15 or so years. So that makes me think that the paperwork part might be outside of the SAP. If we are making the eSAP like the SAP it will be difficult to change later.

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #411

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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bAndersen wrote: Ryan asked for feedback about a post suggesting possible ESAP tasks. I think that all this has become so convoluted that it's best at this point to follow the KISS principle referred to earlier. The ESAP can be modified later as needed.


I could be wrong, but I suspect that if a new SAP is introduced like the current SAP that it will become unchangeable. Most folks I have talked to are not in favor of changing the SAP. That makes me think that people would not be in favor of changing an eSAP. Even if the bylaws of the eSAP make it easier to change the eSAP I think people will want to keep it as is once it is started.

Since my belief is that what is voted in will become what it is forever that is why I am so passionate about discussing what the eSAP should be. I know some people think the eSAP should mirror the SAP except be done with electric limiter planes. Personally I feel that we can do better and that is why I am trying to discuss this.

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #412

  • Ed Anderson
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bAndersen wrote: snip...

Ed's summary is a good place to respond specifically:

I think LSF should embrace all forms of soaring -- Support
I think LSF should be the SIG for all forms of soaring to the AMA -- Support
I think LSF should embrace the goal of promoting soaring in all its various forms. -- Support

* eSAP and SAP have the same tasks but have different patches, decals, etc.
Not sure. TK's ESAP is similar but not matching. Please review TK's ESAP if you haven't recently. I don't think different patches and decals are necessary. The earlier proposal to simply show LSF IIIe should suffice. Frankly, I don't think it a big issue. I don't envision people displaying a level they haven't earned.

* Tasks for one do not count toward the other -- Support

* The launch height outlined in the current proposal is fine and is consistent with common practice and what is possible with pure gliders on a winch.
If you mean the launch height in TK's proposal I agree and support.

What about the restart question?

* For Levels 1, 2 and 3 - the pilot can have the restart set to on. If he restarts he fails the task. Period.
-- Support

* For levels 4 and 5 tasks, restart must be disabled. -- Strongly disagree

* for all contests, the restart option will be according to the rules of the contest placing the LSF pilot on an equal footing with all the other pilots in the contest. It makes no sense to place an LSF 4 or 5 aspirant at a disadvantage in a contest just because he is working on eSAP 3, 4 and 5. -- Support

For level 4 and 5 tasks, once you are working on level 4 and 5 tasks you have demonstrated your skills and should be ready and confident to go out without a safety net, just like the pure glider guys. -- I don't think it's necessary, while it's not a great expense, it does involve another piece of gear, that may or may not be easy to access and change out. Mostly, I think it's not necessary to add this level of risk to very expensive gliders. If I have spent almost an hour or two trying to make the time and have two witnesses on hand, I'm not going to restart under any circumstances except to save my glider. The penalty of simply not making the task as you suggest for levels 1, 2, 3, is great enough.

Am I correct in assuming that the board will review all the posts and modify the current proposal listed in "News" if deemed wise and necessary? Will the modifications be posted ahead of the date to vote?

Respectfully

Barry Andersen
LSF 7319
AMA 1933 Contest Director; Leader-Admin
flying RC since 1959 (yep, built an ACE vacuum tube receiver, single channel escapement)


Barry,

In reference to the restart issue. I am in agreement with you but have made this recommendation in concession to those who object to a restart of any kind. And I can see their point.

If we have restarts as part of the eSAP, then an eSAP IV and V and an SAP IV and V, the advanced/elite levels, can be said to be not equal as the electric guys have a safety cushion that the pure gliders don't have. This creates a disparity at the Level IV and V levels. I don't think that is good.

I think there is logic in having these two levels truly equal and truly peers. Very few will ever pass through to level IV and V. I would not want a "lesser citizen" stigma to exist around the eSAP level IV and V. These are the top of the stack pilots and they should receive that level of respect with no * next to the accomplishment.

SAP level IV and V and eSAP level IV and V should be true peers and to accomplish that the eSAP guys need to give up the safety net.

That, at least, is the logic behind the proposal.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #413

  • James Deck
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In answer to the question posed in Post 406: Yes, the LSF Board is monitoring this thread and will consider modifications to the original proposal. A fresh copy of the final proposal will accompany each email ballot. We chose a somewhat lengthy period to allow as many members as possible to take advantage of the opportunity to comment and question. Thanks to all who have done so and there's still plenty of time to register and comment if you haven't.
Jim Deck LSF President
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