TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #364

  • John Jenks
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I believe Ed has hit on the real issue. We want to bring into the LSF as many soaring pilots as possible. Whether they be string, hand or power launch. This way the LSF can have greater clout with the AMA as the SIG. Otherwise you run the risk of another interest group claiming they have rights to the Soaring component of the AMA. Right now you have 352 participants in the ALES League. And it has about doubled in the last 2 years. If you don't encourage them to belong to the LSF they may start their own SIG.
What can you do to encourage their membership? That should be the central topic of discussion. Having a separate ESAP in my book is secondary but only to the point that it either encourages participation or discourages participation int he LSF.

I've been lurking around this issue and finally was able to find my old LSF 1986 number so I could participate in the discussion. I don't mean to throw any arrows, just hope we can find a way to increase participation and camaraderie among sailplane pilots.

John
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #365

  • Larry Jolly
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Mr. Andersn,
I challenge your supposition that Esoaring is displacing conventional soaring pursuits.
Please provide statistical evidence to back up your remarks.
I find your statements premature at best.. And probably completely eroneous.
I am a loyal LSF member and believe that there is no clear reason to accomadate Epowered gliders except as a favor to the AMA since the LSF decided to take on hosting the ENats..
This is no means a hostile take over of the LSF by a few promoters of ALES compition.
If there is a genuine need for the LSF to allow participation by eflyers then the vote will show it..
Frankly I find your attitude offensive, and devisive.. If this is all about inclusion then you might want to think about your words before you attack the established organization and its membership.
This is far from a done deal.. Larry Jolly
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #366

  • Ken Norris
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I am in favour of an ESAP under LSF stewardship. I do believe that the "E" subset should have a separate identifier whether a prefice or suffice doesn't matter. Some of my planes have a towhook and some have propellers. I do not see how the possibilty of me achieving an electric level 4 denigrates my winch launch level 4 or the two level 5 contest wins currently on my sheet. Whatever the new tasks are I will try to meet them.
Should there be an ESAP or not people will fly the local electric launch contests as they have done in the past years in numbers not seen since the mid to late 90s.
Winch launch TD flying here is virtually dead. We can hardly get 5 flyers out for a contest, however there have been ALES contests with level 5 participation levels this past summer.

Ken Norris
LSF4445
MAAC 359L CD
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #367

  • Preston Heller
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LarryJolly wrote: Mr. Andersn,
I challenge your supposition that Esoaring is displacing conventional soaring pursuits.
Please provide statistical evidence to back up your remarks.
I find your statements premature at best.. And probably completely eroneous.
I am a loyal LSF member and believe that there is no clear reason to accomadate Epowered gliders except as a favor to the AMA since the LSF decided to take on hosting the ENats..
This is no means a hostile take over of the LSF by a few promoters of ALES compition.
If there is a genuine need for the LSF to allow participation by eflyers then the vote will show it..
Frankly I find your attitude offensive, and devisive.. If this is all about inclusion then you might want to think about your words before you attack the established organization and its membership.
This is far from a done deal.. Larry Jolly


Mr. Jolly,

Clearly Ed can no more provide you with statistical evidence to support his supposition than you can to support yours. But that does not mean one cannot offer a thesis based on the empirical evidence observed and gathered. For example, Ed pointed to the very rapid growth of the ALES league numbers. I would add to that the greatly increasing numbers of e-sailplanes offered in the marketplace aimed at the newcomer and the more avid sport flyer. Market response is often a good indicator of trends. Of course that niche market for high end sailplanes will continue to exist, but as you already know, it serves a relatively small number of pilots, and that number that does not seem to be increasing at a significant rate, if contests and attendance numbers are any kind of indicator.

I find your comment "I am a loyal LSF member and believe that there is no clear reason to accomadate Epowered gliders except as a favor to the AMA since the LSF decided to take on hosting the ENats." to be quite puzzling given that you have stated that you are in favor of bringing e-sailplanes into the LSF. Could you explain, a bit further, the "except as a favor to the AMA part".

In any case, I continue to hear more positive feedback regarding the adoption of an eSAP program and I am encouraged by that. If you could do all of us a favor I would love to hear exactly what steps you see as being needed right now to both change/revise the by-laws (a step I agree with) and the specifics of an ESAP program.

Thanks,

Preston
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #368

  • Ed Anderson
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LarryJolly wrote: Mr. Andersn,
I challenge your supposition that Esoaring is displacing conventional soaring pursuits.
Please provide statistical evidence to back up your remarks.
I find your statements premature at best.. And probably completely eroneous.
I am a loyal LSF member and believe that there is no clear reason to accomadate Epowered gliders except as a favor to the AMA since the LSF decided to take on hosting the ENats..
This is no means a hostile take over of the LSF by a few promoters of ALES compition.
If there is a genuine need for the LSF to allow participation by eflyers then the vote will show it..
Frankly I find your attitude offensive, and devisive.. If this is all about inclusion then you might want to think about your words before you attack the established organization and its membership.
This is far from a done deal.. Larry Jolly


Larry,

I have the greatest respect for you and your reputation as a glider pilot. I assure you I mean no offense to you, to LSF or the soaring community. I am an active winch pilot and fly in the Eastern Soaring League in the unlimited class. I am certainly not one of the top pilots in the league but I enjoy traveling along the east coast attending competitions. I am former President of the ESL, have been newsletter editor for years (just retired).

I love pure gliders and winch launching, But I also see what is going on around me.

As stated by others, I have no hard evidence of the explosive growth of e-gliders other than to see the growing numbers of RTF and ARF entry and mid level e-gliders on the market. Likewise I observe the dwindling number of entry level ARF and virtual disappearance of RTF pure gliders on the market. I started with a Spirit RTF, but such things are pretty much gone now.

These ARF and RTF e-gliders are the entry to soaring today. And many if not most will likely never take up pure gliders with hi-starts and winches as a major part of their soaring activity. Why would they? E-soaring is just like winch and hi-start launched soaring without the hassle of an external launcher. At one time I am sure some said that real men hand start their cars, but they are all electric stated today.

And it is happening in full size sailplanes too:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Energy_AE1_Silent
www.alisport.com/eu/eng/silent2_b.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lange_Antares_20E
www.pipistrel.si/plane/taurus-electro/overview
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuneec_EViva
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electravia


As I read about electric launched soaring over the 10 years I have been flying it seemed that all forms of e-soaring competition were fringes on the fringe of soaring until ALES and F5J hit. Now ALES contests are coming up all over the place and a national League has formed. It is probably easier to find a e-soaring contest than a winch or hi-start launched contest.

www.ales-league.org/

How do you ignore that?

The Eastern Soaring League, www.flyesl.org , a very active unlimited soaring league flown off winches, is adding an electric launched soaring division. Why? Because it is so popular and so many of our active contest pilots are adding e-gliders to the fleet and flying in ALES contests.

Go to www.soaringUSA.com or www.kennedycomposites.com and look at all the e-gliders being added to their inventory. And many of the traditional winched gliders can now be had with electric fuselages.

There is only one reason why companies and retailers are expanding their offerings in e-soaring, because the market is there and growing. And the entry to midrange pure glider market is stagnant or shrinking.

Look, Larry, you don't have to agree with me. I have no desire to offend you are anyone else. I just look at the world around me and observe what is going on. And the growth in soaring is NOT in pure gliders, it is in e-gliders.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #369

  • Larry Jolly
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Thank you Preston for answering for Ed, . The fact of the matter is that there are far more conventional Soaring guys than E powered guys. In fact there is a large segment involved in slope soaring that might exceed the others combined. I have come to the conclusion that Gordy was right.. there is no large group of epowered types waiting to knock at the door of LSF to join and become expert soaring pilots through their accomplishments with the SAP...
In fact, as time goes on, it becomes apparent that the vast majority of the advocates for the ESAP are former LSFers who didn't make the commitment to finish the SAP and are now ready to join the ESAP looking for easy contest wins that they cannot get at a String Launch meet.
Frankly as I have stated before I am not sure that this whole idea is not infact in direct conflict with the LSF, and the reason it was created. to increase participation in RC Soaring.. It used to be that to futher your pursuit of RC Soaring you joined together with others and formed a club so that you could share a winch..Now that guys have started flying in smaller groups away from the club enjoying their e models there is erosion at the club level.
Regardless the real discussion is whether dismantling the LSF Bylaws to accomodate a handfull of eflyers that really have little appreciation for the organiztion is a reasonable thing to do.. Because of the tone of the eguys that have responded I have now changed my mind on this subject. When this measure is voted down, I will do all I can form a movemnt of interested LSF members to remove LSF as the SIG for electric soarers. This whole episode has been damaging to the LSF
and will prove to be a huge waste of the LSF's time. LJ
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #370

  • Ryan Woebkenberg
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LarryJolly wrote: I will do all I can form a movemnt of interested LSF members to remove LSF as the SIG for electric soarers.


Kind of outside the scope of this thread but out of curiosity how do you plan to do that? I can only think of 2 ways. One way would be to form a new electric organization and have that organization petition the AMA that they would be a better SIG for e soaring than the LSF. The other way would be to elect somebody to the helm of the LSF that would tell the AMA the LSF no longer wants to the the e soaring SIG.

Ryan
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #371

  • Ed Anderson
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LarryJolly wrote: Thank you Preston for answering for Ed, . The fact of the matter is that there are far more conventional Soaring guys than E powered guys. In fact there is a large segment involved in slope soaring that might exceed the others combined. I have come to the conclusion that Gordy was right.. there is no large group of epowered types waiting to knock at the door of LSF to join and become expert soaring pilots through their accomplishments with the SAP...
In fact, as time goes on, it becomes apparent that the vast majority of the advocates for the ESAP are former LSFers who didn't make the commitment to finish the SAP and are now ready to join the ESAP looking for easy contest wins that they cannot get at a String Launch meet.
Frankly as I have stated before I am not sure that this whole idea is not infact in direct conflict with the LSF, and the reason it was created. to increase participation in RC Soaring.. It used to be that to futher your pursuit of RC Soaring you joined together with others and formed a club so that you could share a winch..Now that guys have started flying in smaller groups away from the club enjoying their e models there is erosion at the club level.
Regardless the real discussion is whether dismantling the LSF Bylaws to accomodate a handfull of eflyers that really have little appreciation for the organiztion is a reasonable thing to do.. Because of the tone of the eguys that have responded I have now changed my mind on this subject. When this measure is voted down, I will do all I can form a movemnt of interested LSF members to remove LSF as the SIG for electric soarers. This whole episode has been damaging to the LSF
and will prove to be a huge waste of the LSF's time. LJ


You are right Larry, there are not a large group of e-glider pilots waiting to knock on LSF's door. And I would guess there are not a lot of pure glider pilots lining up to join LSF either. After all, LSF is an elitist organization by design, or so the history of LSF states. It is there to provide recognition for accomplishments. Not everyone cares about that recognition.

And since the SAP includes a substantial amount of contest flying an only a small percentage of soaring pilots participate in contests, even those who do complete LSF 1 and 2 may not go on to higher levels because they don't care to compete in contests. And some have said it is getting harder and harder to find winched/hi-start soaring contests. I don't have that problem but I have read many do.

As for slope soaring, you can't really think that people are not flying e-gliders on the slope. That is also a growing trend though perhaps not as obvious as thermal soaring since there are very few organized contests for slope soaring. But there are more and more e-gliders being flown on the slope because more and more glider pilots are flying e-gliders and they just take them to the slope. Any why not? They are gliders and do great on the slope.

If you believe that LSF's purpose is only to promote SAP in a pure glider format, and not soaring in general, then I agree with you, the eSAP program is in conflict with the goals and objectives of LSF as it stands today.

And that is what the discussion is about. Should LSF stand apart from the growing trend in soaring or should it embrace it?

That is the real point of this discussion, as I see it.
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #372

  • Preston Heller
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LarryJolly wrote: Thank you Preston for answering for Ed, . The fact of the matter is that there are far more conventional Soaring guys than E powered guys. In fact there is a large segment involved in slope soaring that might exceed the others combined. I have come to the conclusion that Gordy was right.. there is no large group of epowered types waiting to knock at the door of LSF to join and become expert soaring pilots through their accomplishments with the SAP...
In fact, as time goes on, it becomes apparent that the vast majority of the advocates for the ESAP are former LSFers who didn't make the commitment to finish the SAP and are now ready to join the ESAP looking for easy contest wins that they cannot get at a String Launch meet.
Frankly as I have stated before I am not sure that this whole idea is not infact in direct conflict with the LSF, and the reason it was created. to increase participation in RC Soaring.. It used to be that to futher your pursuit of RC Soaring you joined together with others and formed a club so that you could share a winch..Now that guys have started flying in smaller groups away from the club enjoying their e models there is erosion at the club level.
Regardless the real discussion is whether dismantling the LSF Bylaws to accomodate a handfull of eflyers that really have little appreciation for the organiztion is a reasonable thing to do.. Because of the tone of the eguys that have responded I have now changed my mind on this subject. When this measure is voted down, I will do all I can form a movemnt of interested LSF members to remove LSF as the SIG for electric soarers. This whole episode has been damaging to the LSF
and will prove to be a huge waste of the LSF's time. LJ


Jolly,

Oh, I'm sorry. I will raise my hand next time and wait to be called on.

And thank you for not answering my questions. I have sensed that you were, in fact, not in favor of incorporating e-soaring into the LSF, regardless of earlier statements. That is good to know. I think it is a short-sighted view but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I, on the other hand, hope to see the LSF grow with the times and adapt the best that it can.

Say, do you know where I can buy a good film camera?

PH
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ESAP Proposal 4 years 3 weeks ago #373

  • Ed Anderson
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LarryJolly wrote: Snip...

Regardless the real discussion is whether dismantling the LSF Bylaws to accomodate a handfull of eflyers that really have little appreciation for the organiztion is a reasonable thing to do.. Because of the tone of the eguys that have responded I have now changed my mind on this subject. When this measure is voted down, I will do all I can form a movemnt of interested LSF members to remove LSF as the SIG for electric soarers. This whole episode has been damaging to the LSF
and will prove to be a huge waste of the LSF's time. LJ


Larry,

I don't understand you statement about LSF being the SIG for electric soarers. How could LSF possibly be the SIG for electric soarers when LSF won't admit electric soarers to LSF?


I see nothing about this on the LSF home page, nor any reference to this in the bylaws nor in the introduction to LSF page.

On the introduction page it says, "The LSF is now the SIG to the AMA for Soaring " but based on everything else on the LSF web site it is clear that really means only certain forms of soaring.

Saying LSF is the SIG for e-soaring would be like our club, the Long Island Silent Flyers, being the Long Island representative for AMA for giant scale gas pilots, when we don't allow any liquid fuel flying at our field.


Larry, I find more and more that I don't understand your posts.



Let me add this link and this information.

LSF level achievements by year up to 2011. The numbers just keep dropping and dropping. 2012 was not listed.
www.silentflight.org/images/documents/ls...istory%20-%20pdf.pdf

in 1981 there were 393 new LSF members, new Level 1s and 121 went on to complete level 3

In 2001 there were only 68 new LSF members and only 23 new level 3s

In 2011 there were only 22 new LSF members and only 8 new level 3s

And we see that about 2/3 of the new level 1s never complete level 3.

We can only speculate the numbers for 2012 and 2013. Perhaps they have continued on a downward trend as more and more of the soaring community goes electric.

In the 2013 Soaring Nats Unlimited, the biggest event, had 61 registered. (Down from 109 in 2011)

I believe 2013 was the first year that ALES was an official event. It had 33 registrations, more than 50# of the unlimited event. And I would bet that many of the ALES pilots also competed in the pure glider events.
www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/regstats.aspx

If we consider new membership as any kind of an indicator, I sense a trend here that speaks to the shrinking relevance of LSF within the soaring community.


WHAT CHANGED TO CAUSE THIS TREND?


It is interesting to note that the new member numbers have been on a steady decline since 1980. However it was holding pretty steady from 2000 to about 2009, at around 60 new members per year. Around 2009 the trend really started to go down.

There have been e-gliders around for decades but they were heavy and had very weak climbs. But in 2006/2007 that started to change.

In 2005 the Multiplex Easy Glider is selling and very successful in both pure glider and electric glider form. Many Parkflyer pilots purchased the Easy Glider electric and started to discover soaring. When they came out with a brushless upgrade to replace the weak Speed 400 motor this e-glider really started to sell!

2008 Parkzone started shipping the Radian and it is wildly successful among new pilots, experienced soaring pilots and growing number of electric pilots who are interested in giving soaring a try.

2009 is when Soaring Circuits started showing the CAM units that are the basis of ALES.

In 2010 Don Harban purchased a bunch of CAM units and offered to loan them out so clubs could try this new form of soaring competition that we now know as ALES, Altitude Limited Electric Soaring.
www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t...hlight=altitud+limit


In 2011 Polecat aero replaced the annual Polecat DLG contest, which was huge, with the Polecat/Soaring Circuits 2K11 ALES Open Soar contest. And ALES contests were popping up all over the country. For 2014 Polecat has put a cap on registrations at 72 pilots.
www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1394711

I believe it was early 2012 the ALES National League was formed and ALES got its own forum on RCGroups.
www.ales-league.org/

In 2013 The ALES League listed 76 contest that were advertised as open contests. This does not include the growing number of club contests being held. We have an ALES contest every month but it is not listed on the ALES League site because it is for club members only.



So, with a shrinking enrollment, who is LSF representing?

And with e-soaring excluded, how can LSF be the SIG for e-soaring?


I think it is time for LSF to embrace e-soaring.
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